The Steel Guitar Forum

Post by **Brad Bechtel** » 8 Jun 2010 6:47 am

If you include resophonic guitar (Dobro®) as "lap steel", I would argue that lap steel is having a resurgence. There are a larger number of dobro players out there, both male and female, although predominately male. Certainly there are more steel guitar makers (both electric and acoustic) now than there have been in the past 50 years.

The electric lap steel remains a niche instrument, requiring more equipment than a ukulele and being harder to play for a beginner. See the number of beginner discussions on this forum asking about tunings, for example. The ukulele has a standardized tuning that almost everyone uses. The lap steel doesn't.

Darrell Urbien · Post by **Darrell Urbien** » 8 Jun 2010 9:34 am

The steel needs a steel.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 8 Jun 2010 9:39 am

I think a lot of people get into lap steel after playing dobro. I know I did. A resurgence for one should equal a resurgence of the other.

I have no problem with lap being a nitch instrument, though. makes it that more interesting when people finally hear it.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 8 Jun 2010 5:21 pm

Okay: I've heard about as much nonsense as there is. Despite fear of upsetting people I'm going to state what most steel guitarists feel.

The ukulele is a toy instrument with an awful tone. It's pretty useless for playing anything but a strumming background. It has no bass, and its re-entrant tuning makes it useless for most music.

The six-string guitar takes a lifetime to master. The steel guitar, especially with pedals, is even more complicated to master. The banjo, with only four melody strings, takes less time to master than a guitar, and most people only play simple melodies on it. The ukulele has just three strings of harmony and a drone. Any capable guitarist can learn to play it in about half an hour.

It's a pretty useless instrument.

Of course, you can choose to play all sorts of things on it if you're an enthusiast, but you're fighting the limitations of the instrument. As I said before, I've yet to see it in a consort orchestra, and I dismiss entirely any orchestra made up just of ukuleles, which introduce such things as bass ukuleles to make up for real instruments, just as I dismiss the banjo orchestras, for which they concocted bass banjos, and the mandolin orchastras, for which they concocted such things as the octave mandolin.

Just take the ukulele for what it is: a folk instrument with limited applications. Don't try to make out that it's anything more. You know it's not. Everyone else knows it's not. You're not kidding anyone.

Darrell Urbien · Post by **Darrell Urbien** » 8 Jun 2010 5:46 pm

Uh, not to be trollish or anything, but you realize you could substitute "steel guitar" every time you say "ukulele" in your little tirade and it would still make sense.

Travis Hillis · Post by **Travis Hillis** » 8 Jun 2010 5:47 pm

Time to get the popcorn,this should be interesting...

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 8 Jun 2010 6:12 pm

Alan, I have only two words: (the late) John King http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=935ExOpT5bI

Tom Keller · Post by **Tom Keller** » 8 Jun 2010 6:36 pm

There are a lot of things I could call Kelly Joe Phelps but sexy wouldn't be one of them. Your Mileage May Vary.

John Bushouse · Post by **John Bushouse** » 8 Jun 2010 8:44 pm

Alan Brookes wrote:Okay: I've heard about as much nonsense as there is. Despite fear of upsetting people I'm going to state what most steel guitarists feel.

The ukulele is a toy instrument with an awful tone. It's pretty useless for playing anything but a strumming background. It has no bass, and its re-entrant tuning makes it useless for most music.

The six-string guitar takes a lifetime to master. The steel guitar, especially with pedals, is even more complicated to master. The banjo, with only four melody strings, takes less time to master than a guitar, and most people only play simple melodies on it. The ukulele has just three strings of harmony and a drone. Any capable guitarist can learn to play it in about half an hour.

It's a pretty useless instrument.

Of course, you can choose to play all sorts of things on it if you're an enthusiast, but you're fighting the limitations of the instrument. As I said before, I've yet to see it in a consort orchestra, and I dismiss entirely any orchestra made up just of ukuleles, which introduce such things as bass ukuleles to make up for real instruments, just as I dismiss the banjo orchestras, for which they concocted bass banjos, and the mandolin orchastras, for which they concocted such things as the octave mandolin.

Just take the ukulele for what it is: a folk instrument with limited applications. Don't try to make out that it's anything more. You know it's not. Everyone else knows it's not. You're not kidding anyone.

How many steel guitar orchestras are there? How many times has it been used in a concert orchestra or a consort orchestra (there is such a thing, so I wasn't sure which one you were talking about). These are honest questions.

Steel guitar is also an instrument with limited applications. You know it is, and 95% of the listening public would probably agree. Plus, I would argue that it has been in decline in popular Hawaiian music for decades, where the ukulele is still right up there. Where are the internationally known steel guitar stars - the ones with album sales like Iz or Jake Shimabukuro?

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 9 Jun 2010 4:56 am

From the March edition of Aloha Dream, article compiled by Pat Henriques (Who is not particularly a fan of ukuleles, in general, unless it's in the right hands.)

I think that Ukulele ensembles and soloists in general are a "Novelty" rather than Mainstream, somewhat akin to the Hawaiian Guitar But obviously more prolific because of their simplicity to play and their average cost.

The larger number of "Showman" entertainers on the Ukulele have been spawned by necessity, the necessity to supplement the limitations of the instrument with something "Eye Catching", a diversionary tactic NOT required on the Hawaiian Steel Guitar with its inherently greater range of musicalities.

Gerald Ross wrote:The steel guitar is a boring instrument in the performance sense. The musician stares at their hands. They can't jump around, play the steel behind their neck or use it as a phallic symbol slung low on their waist. From the audience perspective - it's like watching someone type.

And quite frankly you can't sing while you play it - it looks really dumb, just like when a drummer sings.

It's not the musician that stares at their hands whilst playing the Hawaiian Steel Guitar, it's the "Almost" musician"...(Anyway, how MANY "Musician" Hawaiian Guitarists are there?)
And, likewise with the "selling to the audience," it's only the inexperienced middle of the road performer that fits that description.

I personally think that Gerald is also incorrect in his assumption that you can't sing and play the Hawaiian Guitar at the same time, that should read, "SOME can't sing and play," etc..
Although he probably is quite correct when he states "Just like when a drummer sings" (Not only looks dumb, but I've yet to hear a drummer that "sings" per se.)

One final point of view, the limitations of the Ukulele are inerrant in the instrument itself, whilst the limitations of the steel guitar are most definitely in the capabilities of the player.

The top echelon in both worlds is a VERY small group of virtuosos, unfortunately whilst the Ukulele has many younger proponents, the Hawaiian Steel Guitar is belonging more to the "Blue Rinse Brigade and Silver Surfers", I know this from personal experience as now at the concerts I play, the car-parks are divided much more in favour of mobility scooters and Zimmer Frames (Walkers) than cars..

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 9 Jun 2010 5:02 am

"Just like when a drummer sings" (Not only looks dumb, but I've yet to hear a drummer that "sings" per se.)

Never thought Levon Helm looked dumb. In fact I always thought he looks great playing the drums and singing.

Ray Shakeshaft · Post by **Ray Shakeshaft** » 9 Jun 2010 5:14 am

Whilst I am primarily known as a uke player I am not falling for the bait Alan.

Some of the things you say you are correct. I have never heard bossa nova played as I think it should be played (a la Joao Gilberto etc) on a uke (or a lap steel for that matter) but to say it is only good for strumming I feel shows a lack of understanding of what is being played on uke these days.

I repeat; for many people it is an accompanying instrument and it is unquestionably easier to learn and play for that purpose but some people have taken it much further.

I feel that a uke versus lap steel is a pointless debate and I know that a number of people who like Hawaiian music also play uke and that is fine since the purpose of music is to enjoy it. Personally I am not a watcher or a listener - I enjoy playing and the uke has introduced many people to the opportunity to make their own music and for that reason alone I would not support the notion that it is a toy.

The next time you are over Alan come to our uke club and you will see about thirty people enjoying themselves with music. That is what music should be about.

Gerald Ross · Post by **Gerald Ross** » 9 Jun 2010 5:34 am

One of the main reasons the ukulele is undergoing a resurgence is it's quick initial learning curve.

I can teach anyone to play an easy song on the ukulele in less than five minutes. It's then up to the student to determine how far they want to take their studies. Is this bad? Does an instrument have to be difficult to learn to deem it legitimate?

Many "five minute" ukers are content spending the rest of their lives strumming the 5-6 chords they know just entertaining themselves. What's wrong with that?

Many baby-boomers are taking up the uke. I hear the same story over and over again when I teach uke classes... "I used to play guitar in High School, now I want music in my life again", "I've never played a musical instrument but I don't have 40 years to master one". Most of these people have no aspirations of becoming professional musicians, they just want to have fun and entertain themselves. There's nothing wrong with that.

Now is it a sexy instrument? I think most here would agree that you have a better chance of mating if you sing "I'll See You In My Dreams" while gazing into the eyes of a woman as opposed to describing your COPEDANT - no matter how big it is.

George Piburn · Post by **George Piburn** » 9 Jun 2010 6:29 am

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 9 Jun 2010 6:36 am

Well it is an easy instrument to carry around. You wouldn't put a pedal steel in your backpack.

As has been mentioned, it's pointless to compare the steel guitar and the ukulele, they're two completely different instruments. You might as well compare it to the tuba.

This is a discussion about the merits of the ukulele: the references to the steel guitar only arise because the discussion is taking place in the Steel Guitar Forum, and the audience is composed of steel guitarists, so it's easy to divert away from the topic.

John Burton · Post by **John Burton** » 9 Jun 2010 7:56 am

These arguments remind me of other discussions about Mountain Dulcimer.
I play and enjoy mountain dulcimers (Appalachian Dulcimers). But they get little respect from "real" musicians, maybe less respect then Ukes.
I would say it's harder to learn Uke then Dulcimer, based on technically the Dulcimer has only three strings and mostly two of them can be used as drones! I would also say the dulcimer is the easiest to learn stringed instrument available.

There are exceptional mountian dulcimer players, of course, like David Schnaufer (look him up), but most players are just amateurs making a little music on there own.

Does all this keep me from occasionally playing a old mountain tune, or fiddle tune on my dulcimer? No.
Heck, it's soothing and fun.

In the end ALL musical instruments are JUST TOOLS. Tools for a person to make music with. That's it.

A 3 axis end mill takes more skill to operate then a screwdriver. BUT they are still both tools.

Just as a Uke and a lap steel are tools.

One thing I never get is why people here are so concerned about whether the steel guitar has a "resurgence" or becomes a "new fad"?

I like that steel guitar is a small niche in the music world, and I like being part of that small club.

JMO.

John Bushouse · Post by **John Bushouse** » 9 Jun 2010 8:14 am

When my Hawaiian trio played a gig at a farmer's market, I was the one who had all the babes hanging around me (I was playing uke and singing lead on most of the songs). Literally, babes. I had the stroller/toddler set totally wrapped up, and their moms would give them some money to throw in our tip case.

Let me tell you, I could never have thrown my steel guitar up behind my head and played a solo on "Hawaiian Cowboy" the way I did with my uke

Travis Hillis · Post by **Travis Hillis** » 9 Jun 2010 11:16 am

I think, for the most part, a instrument is only limited by its player. I think we could all agree that the uke is easier to learn then dobro/steel but a master uke player could probably keep up with anyone on any instrument. If you want to get a uke and strum 4 chords over and over, have at it, but there is more you can do with it.

Heck, I have a little 15 stringed plucked-psaltery and its super easy to play but you can do a lot more that pick simple tunes...

Jim Konrad · Post by **Jim Konrad** » 9 Jun 2010 1:09 pm

http://www.reso-nation.org/videos/2010/ ... l-take-two

Now what the hell you gonna do?

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 9 Jun 2010 1:33 pm

Surprised there was no comment on the John King video. I think he certainly proved that a standard uke, in the right hands, has no limitations and is as difficult to play as any instrument.

Ray Shakeshaft · Post by **Ray Shakeshaft** » 9 Jun 2010 2:07 pm

I admit that I have publicly stated that I did not like classical music played on uke then at the New York Uke Festival 2008 I saw John King and I had to admit I was wrong. He was a wonderful performer and generous with his help to anyone interested. Sadly John died last year.

There are a few uke players following John's path and it seems that most of them come from Europe where a few trained classical guitarists have turned their attention to the uke. It requires not only the dexterity associated with playing stringed instruments but also the choice of music is vitally important.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 9 Jun 2010 2:10 pm

Jim Konrad wrote:http://www.reso-nation.org/videos/2010/ ... l-take-two

Now what the hell you gonna do?

Laugh a little, it's just a joke, well it SHOULD be taken as such.
Slide Ukulele? nah! it's a shortscale 4 string Resonator Hawaiian Guitar.

Darrell Urbien · Post by **Darrell Urbien** » 9 Jun 2010 3:27 pm

John King helped me quite a bit when I was doing my Knutsen research awhile back. He was a tremendous scholar of ukulele (as well as guitar, as he was also an associate editor of Soundboard), and was very kind and generous with his time and knowledge. I would be surprised if he didn't consort with concert orchestras as a feature performer (yes, I understand there is no 1st ukulele chair in the SF Symphony). I think there are some other acts who play uke in similar settings (perhaps also adapted from classical guitar repertoire?).

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 9 Jun 2010 4:20 pm

Taken at one of our bimonthly meetings of the Northern California Association of Luthiers, on the premises of the Da Salva Ukulele Co. in Berkeley, CA.

and this one in the workshop of Tom Ribbeke..

This is a Tarropatch that I play. The slightly bigger body and eight strings give it a better tone than the ukulele...

Then there's the Guitarini, a small 8-string guitar...

Joseph Meditz · Post by **Joseph Meditz** » 9 Jun 2010 7:29 pm

I made this from a Stew-Mac kit last year. It's the first time I ever made an instrument. I learned a lot including trying my hand at French polishing. It was a good experience. I gave it to my cousin for his birthday. He teaches high school here and said that ukes are extremely popular. His students got a kick out of this one.