He won't fix my Champ?!?!

Jon Flynn · Post by **Jon Flynn** » 4 Jun 2010 11:34 am

A while back I bought an early 60s Fender Champ from a very well known national dealer that was described to be in very good and working condition. When I got it, I immediately noticed something was wrong in the tone pot - 100% of the adjustment fell within about 5 degrees of throw in the control. Adjusting the tone is all but impossible. Today I brought it to a local shop and the repair guy tells me that he strongly recommends against repairing the guitar since all the parts are original. He goes on to say that the pickup is probably the same as one from a 60s Strat, the parts are worth $1000, yada, yada, yada. If I'm dead set on repairing it, he recommends taking out all the components, setting them aside and replacing the entire circuit with a new Mexican Strat pickup and parts because a Strat player would find the parts extremely valuable. He would do all this for something like $40. What service! Being a guy who gets pretty steamed every time I a see a perfectly good Champion pickup that's been scavenged and put on ebay as a Broadcaster or Esquire pickup (and assuming the body, etc went to the dumpster and there's one less steel guitar in the world), this guy isn't winning any points with me. But, he did get me thinking - scavenging aside, is the guitar more valuable being original but not fully functional? I don't think it is to me, but... Forgive me if this has been discussed here before, but my basic question here is: Does anyone here recommend against repairing this guitar and what is your rationale?

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 4 Jun 2010 11:53 am

Is that how it worked when it was new?

Rich Hlaves · Post by **Rich Hlaves** » 4 Jun 2010 11:55 am

Jon,

First a question, did you or the tech try to clean the pot? Might be an easy fix.

If it where me, I would replace the offending pot and save the original. I assume you want to play it not let it sit in a closet. I would not remove all the electronics.

I'm not sure you could put a Mexi strat PU in there as it may be too tall to fit without routing the body cavity deeper and I'm sure you don't want to do that.

Jon Flynn · Post by **Jon Flynn** » 4 Jun 2010 12:00 pm

Rich - I did try to clean the pot already. No luck.

Great answer, Earnest!

I was rolling my eyes even writing the post, but figured I better consult y'all.

You guys are quick. Any other opinions out there?

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 4 Jun 2010 12:02 pm

The tone pot is often like that on Fender steels--that's how you get the doo-wah sound, like Jerry Byrd and so many others did. It has to do with the capacitor and the taper of the pot. If you're not happy with the tone, try an EQ pedal, but you should probably leave the guitar alone.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 4 Jun 2010 12:17 pm

Jon Flynn wrote:
Great answer, Earnest!

I thought it was a question.

Jon Flynn · Post by **Jon Flynn** » 4 Jun 2010 12:37 pm

I thought it was a question.

I'm sorry Earnest, I mistook your response.

I am pretty certain the guitar was not like this new. The tone is essentially 100% on or 100% off. This can't be intentional. Unless I'm totally missing something here, it does not produce the "wah" effect Mike spoke of.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 4 Jun 2010 12:58 pm

So, Jon: if you turn the tone all the way off, strike and hold a note, then turn the knob, you don't hear the effect of the note opening up, like I described as "doo-wah"?

Can you open up the control cavity and take a picture?

Jon Flynn · Post by **Jon Flynn** » 4 Jun 2010 1:21 pm

Mike. I get no such effect. I strike a note and hear the tone totally unchanged for 1/2 of the turn (give or take), then an immediate shift to completely open and that lasts for the remaining 1/2 of the turn. I have a pic around here somewhere but may not be able to post it until Monday... but I will.

Rich Hlaves · Post by **Rich Hlaves** » 4 Jun 2010 1:43 pm

Those things take about 1/4 of the rotation to do the Boo-Wah thang and the effect/change is somewhere the middle of the rotation. This one sounds broke to me. If it is tripping like a light switch something is wrong.

That 1/4 rotation I would describe as 1/4 of the pots movement not 1/4 turn. Certainly more than 2-3 deg.

One thigs for sure, If the pot is bad it won't be worth anything to a collector and can only take away from the value of your instrument if it is not working correctly.

Adam Gejdos · Post by **Adam Gejdos** » 4 Jun 2010 2:03 pm

If the pot is defective (I guess that's still tbd) I personally, would replace it.
I picked up a 58 Fender Esquire that had worn out tuners, and a bad switch. I replaced them and put the originals in a baggie and stored them away in my safety deposit box. I love the guitar and the replaced parts don't bother me. I figure if I ever sell it (remote chance) I'll include the original parts. The only caveat to this is that for some collectors, the value is diminished if you break the original solder.

Bill Creller · Post by **Bill Creller** » 4 Jun 2010 2:30 pm

It sort of depends on which is most important to you, the playing of the guitar like you want it to be, or it's originality. If you bought it to play it, fix it.

The originality and value issue is over-done on steel guitars in my opinion, with the playability, sound/tone being more important. Unless it's for a collector of course, most of which don't play them anyway.

Mark Lavelle · Post by **Mark Lavelle** » 4 Jun 2010 3:30 pm

Jon Flynn wrote:I strike a note and hear the tone totally unchanged for 1/2 of the turn (give or take), then an immediate shift to completely open and that lasts for the remaining 1/2 of the turn.

That means it must be a dead pot.

Whether or not to replace the pot is a classic example of players vs. collectors. It may be true that your guitar will be worth more in 100% original condition, but did you buy it with resale in mind?

Didn't think so. IMO the best option is to replace the pot and save the original. If you ever want to sell it, just include the old pot (or offer to put it back in yourself)...

-- Mark

Tom Pettingill · Post by **Tom Pettingill** » 4 Jun 2010 3:37 pm

Fix it, save the old parts and enjoy.

Paul Bostic · Post by **Paul Bostic** » 4 Jun 2010 5:37 pm

As Ray Montee explained to me, You have to appreciate the sound of the instrument. Let the collectors worry about their own ears! As for changing the tone pot can you acomplish the tonal effects you want with your amp and or an external pedal?

Bill Creller · Post by **Bill Creller** » 5 Jun 2010 7:00 am

Like Paul said, the amp or a pedal will alter the tone fine. My frypan doesn't have a tone control, and many didn't, so using the amp tone control does the job OK.

Garry Vanderlinde · Post by **Garry Vanderlinde** » 5 Jun 2010 12:14 pm

If it was my guitar, I’d buy a used, year appropriate pot from the same manufacture (CTS?). Get as close a match as possible. The tone pot in my 1959 Champ reads: 137 916 and it's a 1MEG linear.
You can find one from a vintage parts dealer or on ebay and install it. They are not that rare or expensive. I like to go to the Vintage Guitar shows and pick up stuff like this.

I think the pickup in these Champs was not the Stratocaster variety but rather the Musicmaster.

Terry Barnett · Post by **Terry Barnett** » 6 Jun 2010 10:24 am

How qualified is the tech at this particular shop? I run a service shop and I will not alter vintage instruments in any way that will deminish their value but what you're discribing is a tone pot that doesn't function properly. There could be several reasons for this. The old/vintage pots have an actual carbon trace...cleanable. Some of the newer pots have a conductive paint trace. Easily scratched and harder to clean. Your pot could be alright. You can definately replace it with a vintage 1Meg pot. The Capacitor could also be the problem and chances are there could even be a wiring problem...something that looks connected and isn't...something that has been repaired previously and not quite correct. I'm with Mike Neer on this one. If you can post a pic that might help. Why not get a second opinion if you can? It's possible tha tech you visited missed a simple repair. Caps and pots do wear out but they are replaceable without altering the playability or overall sound of the instrument. How many vintage cars are running on the original tires?

Jon Flynn · Post by **Jon Flynn** » 6 Jun 2010 6:07 pm

I'm not sure exactly what kind of shot you guys are looking for, but maybe this one will get us started. I should also mention that the guitar is not in what I would call "collectable" condition. Like I mentioned, the shop where I bought it called it "good" or "very good" condition. I wouldn't say this one has been abused, but it does has it's fair share of dings and flaking paint. Would that change anyone's opinion regarding the idea to leave it alone?

[/img]

admin · Post by **b0b** » 6 Jun 2010 7:49 pm

I'd replace the pot and capacitor, and keep the old one in a ziplock bag in the case for the future "collector" who might want it.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 6 Jun 2010 8:00 pm

It's kind of difficult to see from that angle, but be sure to save the old ones when replacing. Also, it sounds like you would prefer a linear taper pot, which makes the change proportionate with the position of the shaft in its rotation.

Garry Vanderlinde · Post by **Garry Vanderlinde** » 6 Jun 2010 8:50 pm

There are a lot of things that may or may-not be dis-functional with your guitar. I suspect not a lot. If you are totally at wits end please contact my electronics tech.

String Theory, Stringed Instrument Repair
David Vanderlinde
Boca Raton,Fl
E-mail Address:
dddfla@gmail.com

Jon Flynn · Post by **Jon Flynn** » 17 Jun 2010 6:19 pm

I'd like to thank everyone for all the information and opinions. Regarding adjusting the tone with the amp, I'm new to the world of electrics and only have a humble Champion 600 to use with my guitars. The amp doesn't have a tone control. In the end, I followed my original gut instinct and the majority of the advice to have the pot replaced. I'll keep the original in the case. Admittedly, I felt a slight pang of guilt when driving the guitar home, but when I plugged it in, all that disappeared. Now THAT is what the guitar should sound like, and man does it sound good! I couldn't be happier. Thanks to b0b and everyone who responded!