S-13 universal setup?

Ryan Barwin · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

I'm considering trading for a Carter S-13. It's got 7&6. I've got this setup worked out, but I'm not sure what to do with the 13th string. A low E doesn't seem too useful, and a C# (or D) 9th string might interfere with chord playing.

Does anyone here play 13 or 14 string guitars? How do you tune those strings, and what changes do you use? What would you recommend? Thanks.

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Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Hey Ryan. I have a 14. It was my intention to tune it as the standard 12 Uni with the D string added where it would normally be placed on the 10 string E9 tuning. Perhaps drop that string down to a C# on a kl.

I haven't done it yet, but that's my plan.

Jim Smith played a 13 Uni at one time. Maybe he will see your post and add some pertinent information.

Or you could check out Julian Tharpe's tuning for something completely different.

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

I agree with Jerry. Throw the D in at the 9th string and move the others down. I've played uni's forever but truthfully have secretly wished for the D note that my std E9th brethren have Smile

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Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

I play a 12-string uni. Several years ago, I took off the 12th string B so I could add the D string in the 9th slot. It really screwed up the B6 grips and drove me crazy. On the E9 side of the tuning it didn't take me long to remember how to use that 9th string D; but, I never could get the B6 grips to work for me.
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John Groover McDuffie · From: LA California, USA

I think adding a D string would be cool. I think the "grips" issue can be adjusted to, you do give up some ability to strum chords. I have toyed with the idea of adding all the "C6th" pedals from a Uni set-up to my XE9 set-up, but without that low B they don't seem to make as much sense. So having a S-13 UNI+9D would make the maximization of both worlds possible.

As a matter of fact (danger - hijack!) if you don't end up trading for that axe it might pique my interest. As long as it's not the yellow & black two-tone that was on the old Carter website. 8~)

Or I could get off the SGF and go practice....

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

I had a 13 string Fessy at the shop for awhile that I setup that way for a customer and I played it for a couple of days and thought it was pretty danged cool!

Ryan Barwin · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Thanks for the ideas...the D string sounds like a cool idea. I guess I'd lower it to C# on the lever lowering the E's. Then it's like having a D string on C6th between the C and E.

Julian Tharpe's tuning is cool...I saw it in the Winnie Winston book, and it's way different than what anyone else uses.

Jim, how was the Fessy set up?

It is yellow...I think they made 2 of them, but only one of them's got the two-tone colours... It's pretty hideous-looking, which is my only issue with the guitar. Any ideas to make it look a little better? Besides putting new mica on it.

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Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

The one I setup was a typical uni setup with the exception of the 9th string D. Jeff Newman used some 1" striping tape in various colors on a guitar that looked pretty good and I've even seen decent jobs done with contact paper. Have fun- you can always replace the mica and the other avenues are cheap.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

If I had 13 string, I'd keep the standard universl tuning, but add an extra chromatic string on top. Theoretically, it would be tuned to B and drop to Bb. Of course, we could never get a string to tune that high, so I'd have to tune the entire guitar down to a D9/A6 tuning and have the extra string tuned to A.

I use the D note on the missing 9th string all the time. I just grab it on a knee lever instead of having it on a separate string.
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Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

No matter what you do, some of the string grips are going to be different than the double neck E, C tunings.

The common E9/B6 causes you to close up your grip on the bottom 6, 8 & 10 you are used to, to 6, 8 and 9, where normally you would be skipping the 9.

If you add the 9th string D in, then your common C grips have to be altered....wider and skipping a string for many chords, but adding a new possibility for others. It's a trade off either way, so I guess it depends on which config works the best for the way you play and what you are doing with your pedals and kl's.

If you are looking at one big tuning v the E9/C6 idea, perhaps something else altogether?

If you do a lot of framming or big long string rakes on the C side, the D might get in the way of that.

I'll let you know when I get mine set up.

I know there's a Jim Smith post on the 13 string deal somewhere in the archives if you wanna research it.

John Groover McDuffie · From: LA California, USA

[quote="Ryan Barwin"] Any ideas to make it look a little better? Besides putting new mica on it.

Contact paper comes in many pretty colors and designs. You might even be able to make the PSG color-co-ordinate with your kitchen! Mr. Green

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

I'd go ahead and add the 9th string D or C#. I played a Universal with the low B for a long time and heard about Terry Crisp and others dropping the low C note and adding a D string in position 7 on their C6th. I figured that to do that I'd have to drop the low B and add a C# at position 9 and that's what I did about 5 or 6 years ago and I'll never go back. I don't miss the low B at all and you'll still have it. As far as string grips, no problem with them at all and you can also do the "strums" if you're into that.........JH in Va.
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Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Hi Mike...I didn't mean to imply that not having the D on a Uni 12 string makes it inferior, old school, or "lesser than" in any way. The "one big tuning" thing has it's own strong points to be sure!!! This has been proven by you, and all the great S12 players many times over.

What I'm getting at is that so much of what catches my ear lately by the top guys on E9, is how they use the D string....especially with the KLs that lower (and sometimes raises) the D string. It's what turns me on the most these days when I sit down to play E9. It has a beautiful open sounding vibe with really pretty movement and great counterpoint!

I'm thinking that on a 13 string Uni you'd have to both lower it in conjunction with the E's on one KL, and also lower it the usual way, with with the 2nd string lower lever.

Ron Castle · From: West Hurley,NY

another thing is to add a C# to the 9th and
raise it to D on your knee that takes str 2
down from D# to D.
The C# under the E gives you the I-vi movement, its like many players have by adding a middle D to C6.

As for notes getting in the way, if you strum alot thats true - but I never understood the 'grip' problem on chords, if you play E9 you're skipping the F# all the time.

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

Ron, that's what I do on mine but I also tune my 2nd string to C# and raise both the 2nd and 9th strings to D with my LKR. On my LKL, I raise the 2nd string to D# and lower the 10th string B to Bb (A#). I lower the 5th string to Bb on my LKV. By doing this, when I'm using the pedal that raises the 5th and 6th strings a whole tone each, I have the same notes in the lower register by using the 9th string C# and the 10th string lowered a half.....JH in Va.
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Ron Castle · From: West Hurley,NY

actually I personally also have the 2 C# and raise to d# and d, but looking at the coped. above I figured
just adding the lower c# would be easiest solution

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

i like the yellow!

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

Like Jeff Newman,I build and fly RC airplanes and I think he used this product to add trim to his steels.
http://www.monokote.com/trim.html Get it at your local hobby shop.Cut it to shape,peel off the backing and stick it on. You can also buy it in rolls like tape in various widths. There's products like that too that are used to add pinstriping to cars. Yeah that yellow could use a little contrast...

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

My longtime friend Don McClellan years ago had a 13-string uni with a D string (a Kline, I think). He struggled with it for years, and told me that keeping that D string was a huge mistake and he went to a standard 12 string uni and was much happier. Grips are definitely fouled up with that note there, when playing in B6 mode.

I play ext E9 and now lower the string 9 D to C# on my E knee lever, and suddenly the whole low end is very strummable. Even on a 10 string E9 that change improves things a lot. Not sure why everyone doesn't do that.

On the E9 side, I would NEVER give up a string 9 D note, I'm with pal Rick Schmidt on that, too many great runs and chords need that note there. And having to lower E to D, or raise B to D, you just lose too many rich chords without both notes being there.
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Ryan Barwin · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

I just found out that the 6th lever on this guitar is actually RKV. Kind of weird.
I've got this revised setup worked out...what do you think?

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Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Hi Ryan....It really looks like a loaded set up! A couple ideas you might consider....

Left to Right:

Your LKV is on the same knee that lowers your E's. (LKR). I think you'd really find it impossible to utilize the B to Bb lower the way it's usually used by all the great 6th players. Many E9 copedents have the B to Bb lower on verticals, but the way that lower works on your 6th tuning would be better served elsewhere.

Also since you've chosen to have 4 pulls on the LKR, I'm thinking you better break out the "Thigh Master" if you plan on holding that lever in the entire time that you're thinking in B6. I do think that in order to make the cool 9th string thing work on your Uni 13 string, you do need to lower the D to C# with the lever that lowers both E's. I'd consider trying the half stop on the 2nd string on RKR and take off the D# to C# lower on LKR.

Even though I'm pretty much a dyed in the wool double neck player, I've thought a lot about what I'd do with a 13 string Uni, and for myself I'd want the E's lower lever on my right knee. To me it seems more natural there if you have to keep it engaged for long periods of time. Then your left foot can more freely access the floor pedals on the right side of the guitar. Like I said, these are just my opinions. Your mileage may vary.

I know nobody's asking, but if it was mine...

* I'd put your LKV on the LKR.

* I'd put LKR on RKL (and lose the second string lower)

* I'd put your RKL on the LKV (and possibly tune out the lower G# lower w/ the half stop...too much tension for a vertical, but better positioning)

* I'd put the D# to D/C# half stop on RKR and lower the D to C# on the ninth string again. Trust me on this one!

* As far as RKV goes, it's anyone's guess. Good luck with whatever you do with that one, and let us know how it works!

* I'd also be a little apprehensive about 3 whole step raises on your P1....it might be pretty stiff. You can always tune the low one out too.

Whatever you eventually do with this axe, best of luck and keep us informed how it's going. I dig thinking about this stuff! Thanks for
your indulgence.

Rick

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

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