Looking out for the steel players interest

Rick Myrland · From: New Orleans

I have my first ever public "gig" coming up in June and new to all the issues most of you have had already dealt with. During rehersals we've been playing through our own amps but for the gig we'll be running everything through a board and playing in a old barn for a barn dance. No one else in the band has ever worked with a steel player before, which is both good and bad (probably more good, not really sure). We have a drummer, bass, lead and keyboard player and vocals.

My question is, when it comes down to running everything through the board (I understand we'll have a sound man) what should I be looking for in terms of making sure my sound, tone, or whatever is somewhat protected? Is there any prevailing wisdom or rules of thumb when it comes to working with sound people, other members, etc. in how it is set up and operated?
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Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

This can be a major issue or it can be a "non issue" depending on the person running the sound board. Talk to the guy beforehand and if the guy is not a dud he will listen to you and want to help you get the best sound out front.

Keep in mind, with most systems what you hear on the monitors isn't always exactly what they hear on the mains.

Edward Byrne · From: Foxford, County Mayo, Ireland

you re to a certain extent, at the mercy of the sound man, ive met some good ones, and quite a few bad ones, and a bad one can make a good steelie sound bad, or non existant, i might suggest ask the lead player to go down the hall at sound check, and see are you getting the same sound tone wise as you do, more or less on stage, and how the balance of the band is, and if your not happy, get the soundman to listen at close quarters, and TELL him, this is the sound i want out there, you want your sound, not his!if you have anyone in the audience, whose judgement you can trust, thats a bonus, there is one well known steel player here in Ireland, who i know for a fact, is not adverse, to jumping off his steel, mid gig, going down to the desk, and changing things himself, a slap in the face for the soundman, but lets him know who is boss, good luck with the gig

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

What I try to do is sit at the steel and catch the sound guy when he is doing stuff on or around the stage.
I will say excuse me and get his attention, ask him to come over.
Then, when he is looking me in the eyes I will hit a lick or two and say that is the type sound I am looking for.
I figure this gives me a 50-50 chance but at least he has a sound in his mind.
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Steve Becker · From: Daytona Beach FL

Yeah, you are definitely at the mercy of the soundman. In my experience, the problem is usually that the steel is not loud enough in the mix. There's nothing more demoralizing than playing your ass off all nite and then having someone come up to you and tell you they couldn't hear you! So I usually make a point of asking someone in the audience (preferrably a friend)if you're coming thru early on. Or,usually, I use a small hand held tape deck and tape the sound check, and the rest of the performance as well, to give me feedback on my tone,tuning,phrasing ,etc.I find it to be really helpful. However,It kind of goes without saying that if the volume ain't there the tone won't be either. A good sound man is worth his weight in gold! Good luck with your first gig!

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

When playing straight into the board without any amp back line, you're at the mercy of the sound person even more than usual. I agree with others that it's a good idea for a band to discuss the 'band sound' before starting to sound check - it isn't just about the steel but the whole mix. But there are some ways to fight back if you have a real problem.

Bring something like a Pod or some type of effects system on which you have good control of the volume and EQ. During sound check, give the sound person a completely flat signal (no EQ) and a nominal signal level that leaves you plenty of room to move either up or down, and see what they do with it. Have someone in the band go out and listen, and you do the same with them. If it's reasonable, meaning that the instruments sound reasonably and volume levels are reasonably balanced, you're fine - this means you have reasonable sound people, don't try to micromanage what they're doing.

But if it's just awful - bad sound, completely unbalanced, some instruments just not in the mix, or whatever - then you at least have something with which to do some individual corrections. It may be useful to talk with them and try to get them to make the corrections - if they're reasonable, they'll try to do what's right. But sometimes I've felt like it was wasted breath. That's when I would try to make individual corrections in the band. I suggest making small corrections at a time - if they notice you trying to counter-mix them, they may react.

I don't really enjoy playing without any back line of amps - but there are situations where it just happens. Usually for me, it's because the stage is so small there isn't room - e.g., small coffeehouse. In that situation, we're running our own small PA, so there isn't any problem. But I have played larger gigs with no amp, straight from a Pod or Tubefex into the mixing board. Those gigs worked out OK.

Paul Wade · From: mundelein,ill

rick,

here is what i do .i mike my steel on the right side
of the speaker to get that "sweet spot" then i tell
the sound guy To E.Q me on the board at "12.00 noon
no effects used your own effects .for volume thru the p.a just bleed it thru the P.A to get the right balance
this works for me but, the sound guy has to be sharp!!
and listen . he can ether make you or break you!!!

p.w

Smile

John Groover McDuffie · From: LA California, USA

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

You can take all the Pods, EQs, etc. that you want. Won't make much difference. The sound guy is still the last in the chain. If you change your EQ, he's quite likely to change it back at the board. Going into studios with engineers who weren't familiar with steel, I always took some CDs for them to listen to, and to get some idea of what I was looking for. If I were to do a gig with an unknown soundman, I'd take a portable CD player and an example CD along for him to hear.

John Groover McDuffie · From: LA California, USA

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

I guess I'd agree with that John. However, the soundman is still gonna do what he wants to do to the signal. You can send him good stuff, and he can still make it sound bad. My most important point was to "educate" them as to what you're looking for. Our soundman was always a part of the band. I used an amp on stage, but sent a direct to him with an old Sansamp. He added all effects at his board. But I had him thoroughly "educated" before his first gig with us.

Chris Dorch · From: Wisconsin, USA

I would be very worried about this..

1) You have to worry that the sound person will make sure everything is sitting correctly and eq'd correctly in the mix.

2) You'll need to have multiple monitor mixes (2-4) (which will require several boards for more than 1 really), otherwise, how are you going to hear anything that you are playing or anyone's singing/playing.

3) How many appropriate effects does the person have on the rack? Otherwise, everything is going to sound really lifeless seeing how MOST systems are all solid state (which is good for steel but not much else IMO).

Of course, this has all been stated above. I would find out why they wish for everything to go direct thru the board. They don't even do that at Summerfest.. (Granted, many of the Clearwing folks know what's going on..)

Sounds to me like they want control over the sound levels. If it were me, I would have everyone bring their amps "just in case."

Good luck..

David Nugent · From: Gum Spring, Va.

Rick...In my experience, the first thing is to establish if the soundman has ever worked with a steel guitar player before. If not, politely explain your role in the band and stress the fact that you will be using a volume pedal and that there are periods when you will be laying out and not playing at all. One particular incident I remember was at an outdoor show where the sound engineeer (who was used to mixing rock acts,) was diligently watching the VU meters and each time he would notice my level drop or disappear completely he would start frantically adjusting my mix and volume. By the third song, my level was so high that I could barely depress the VP when playing.

Bill Howard · From: Indiana, USA

First of all the Sound man is not going to like your control of the volume they want you to be consistant
they want a set volume and most don't understand that conrol of volume is part of your sound unless your playing a really big place I would tell the sound man I will handle my own sound, if they insist during sound check leave the pedal at a set place when the set begins do your own thing. Pro sound men know about this some local week end warriors do not good luck.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

With sound men, and recording engineers, never refer to it as a "Volume"pedal. Call it an "Expression" pedal,,, ya know,,, like on a Hammond organ!

Leslie Ehrlich · From: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada

I remember one of the first 'gigs' I brought PSG to... the sound man offered to DI the guitar into the board and I said 'no thanks'. I wanted a distorted sound, and the only way to get that was by overdriving my amp and miking it. I was using my Fender Roc Pro 1000 combo at the time.
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Rick Myrland · From: New Orleans

As usual, I'm always amazed and impressed at the resources available on this forum, thanks for all the comments.

I should have made clear that this is my first live gig with any band and I have no experience with any of the "sound" issues that arise. The drummer and bass player were previously in a hard rock band, the keyboard player has similar experience. So, when I read some of your comments I'm a bit confused but I think this is an important learning point.

David Nugent · From: Gum Spring, Va.

Rick....A "flat signal, no EQ" means that all knobs on the mixing board would be set at 12 o'clock, all tone adjustments would be controlled by you utilizing your amp or preamp....If the soundman does not agree with your choice of tone, he may make adjustments on the board to find one that he likes better (read that, make it sound more like a six string)...Most amp speakers have a "sweet spot" where they sound best when mic'd. This can usually be determined by moving the mic around to different locations and distances from the amp. This will most likely not be an option however since most sound men are from the "run the mic cable through the amp handle and dangle the mic in front of the speaker school."

Rick Myrland · From: New Orleans

That's the kind of "rule of thumb" advice I'll find very helpful.

Another question: Why do you place your mic infront of your speakers? I would think from electroncis theory, that every conversion introduces distortion (Steel -> Pickup -> Amp -> Speaker -> Mic -> Board -> Amp -> Speaker) plus the potential to pikcup unwanted background noise. Would you be further ahead to take a line out from your amp to the sound board?
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Mullen G2; Fender Tone Master Twin Reverb; Goodrich L-120

John Groover McDuffie · From: LA California, USA

If you take a line out you don't get the tonal contribution of the speaker. Guitar amp speakers do not give a flat response like studio monitors and PA main speakers to a lesser degree are designed to do. The coloration introduced by the response of the speaker is part of the sound. If you take a line out of the amp (unless it is designed with speaker emulation circuitry) you will often end up with more high frequencies than the speaker in your amp reproduces. This can result in a harsh or unpleasant sound. It gets especially ugly with distortion-oriented sounds which have a lot of ugly in the high range that gets smoothed out by most guitar speakers. If you like an extremely clean sound it can work OK, but often would require some massaging of the EQ at the board to sound best.

Unless you have your own sound man who is used to working with you and knows your sound, it is best if the sound they get from you is in the right ballpark without any EQ adjustments on their part. For electric guitars, including those played with a steel bar, this is most easily achieved by playing through an amp that gives you a sound that you like, or are at least used to, and letting the sound engineer mic you.

An electronic keyboard on the other hand is designed to produce a signal that should be amplified as faithfully as possible, ie no additional coloration produced by the amplification, and is well suited to "going direct" into a sound system.

A lot of sound engineers, being human, are inherently lazy and I occasionally encounter one who wants to take a line out of my amp presumably because it is easier than hanging a mic, but I always say they need to mic my amp instead. Of course telling them that my amp doesn't have a line out helps, and this is usually true. Wink

Your entry into live performing will of course involve a learning curve, but hopefully research such as you are doing here on the forum can make this process as painless as possible for you.

Leslie Ehrlich · From: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada

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