Foot position for B pedal + LKL

John Polstra · From: Lopez Island, WA, USA

My instrument has the Emmons setup, with the A pedal on the left. Once in a blue moon I come across some tab that calls for using the B pedal with the F lever (no A pedal). The F lever is LKL on my guitar, and I'm not able to hold both it and the B lever without also nudging the A pedal. The combination of knee to the left and ankle to the right is just more bending than I can do.

Is that a common problem, or do I need to try to adjust my pedal heights so I can do it? I can play it by moving my foot over the B and C pedals so that my ankle tilts toward the left to press the B pedal.

Thanks,
John

Bill Moore · From: Manchester, Michigan

John, you probably have to lift the heel of the left foot up quite a bit, while swinging the knee to the left. Not the most comfortable move to make, but this will make it easier.

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

That's a tough move. Do you have a lever that lowers the 5th string from B to Bb? That accomplishes the same thing, without having to move the bar back one fret.

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

I use that move fairly often. It's certainly not easy or the most comfortable. I find that lifting my heel off the floor and pivoting it well to the right (with the right side of the foot holding down the B pedal as the pivot point) helps for me. Pedal height adjustment could help, too.

John Polstra · From: Lopez Island, WA, USA

Thanks for the tips, guys. It never occurred to me to lift my heel. It does help some, but I still can't quite get there. Anyway, it's good to know it's not supposed to be an easy move.

Lee, it took me awhile to figure out what you were talking about, but now I get it. That's pretty tricky! I do have a half-step lower on string 5 on my RKL, so I can use it. Out of curiosity, what would you call the chord that you get when you lower string 5 like that? My best guess is it's part of a II9 chord (missing the root and 5th). So on the 8th fret, lowering string 5 takes you from a C to a partial D9. Does that sound right?

John

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

yeah thats an ankle buster. I dont use it often and am still workin on it

Peter Freiberger · From: California, USA

In addition to making the B pedal travel shorter, maybe you can also make the LKL throw shorter. You might also experiment with positioning the left knee levers. Like Doug says, you should be able to hit all the pedal and knee combinations comfortably.

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

even ones you are not used to making? arent they ALL uncomfortable the first couple times you attempt them? they were for me.

with this move, my experience has been that its becoming easier and more comfortable over time without adjustment to my guitar.

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Everyone's body is different and, being that most steels are very adjustable, I find that customizing the pedal and knee lever travel and knee lever placements and/or angles, makes the guitar easier and more comfortable. I do it to all my guitars.
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Best regards,
Mike

Peter Freiberger · From: California, USA

Of course there's a lot of adaptation one has to make to the instrument at first, but as there's a range of adjustment available for pedal and knee lever travel and effort, and position, etc. there's also a lot to be gained by a personalized set-up that suits the instrument to the player as well.

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

What chord it is depends on the root you are playing it over. From a I chord pedals-up position dropping back two frets and lowering the B string or dropping back three frets and doing the move you describe here both give you a I7, give or take a few available odd notes.

Using this combination over an different root would of course give you something else entirely but this is the most common use that I am aware of for this turn.

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

I think i shift my foot over, as to apply B and c pedals... but don't hit the C pedal???
Cant do the ankle to the right and knee to the left. I'ts probably not allowed. Very Happy

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A.K.A Chappy.

John Polstra · From: Lopez Island, WA, USA

OK, thanks everybody. I guess I'll have to try adjusting the pedals some more. I hate to even start with that, because it seems like every time I adjust them to make something easier, it makes something else harder. Changing the travel of the A pedal just might be the key, though. I haven't tried that yet.

John

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Just remember, John, that shortening any pedal or knee lever's travel will require changing pull rod positions which would make for stiffer, or harder to actuate, pulls. How much stiffness is too much is for you to decide.

But, you might only need to adjust the knee lever's angle, or the pedal's "at rest" position. (both very easy to do on an all pull guitar) This wouldn't change the feel, or stiffness, but could get the actuators into more comfortable positions for you.

I'd advise pursuing this route before changing the pull mechanism itself.
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Best regards,
Mike

John Polstra · From: Lopez Island, WA, USA

Thanks for the advice, Mike. Changing the angle of the LKL lever just might be the solution. I hadn't thought of that. I'd like it if LKL and LKR were closer together, anyway.

If I do end up shortening the travel of the A pedal, I'll probably do it by moving the ball joint on the pedal itself out away from the pivot point. That way, I won't mess up the synchronization of the pulls. There are three possible positions for the ball joint, and all of them are in the middle position currently. I realize that no matter how I shorten the travel, it will make the pull stiffer. It's not too stiff now, though, so I think it might be OK. Also, there's a return spring on the axle (a torsion spring) that I could remove if necessary.

John

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

John, I don't know how long you've been playing but have you ever thought of moving your E raises and lowers to the right knee like a lot of us do? I have my E to F raises on my RKL and my lowers on RKR just like Jeff Newman did. Also if you ever consider going to a Universal tuning in the future, they'd be much more efficient on the right knee. I used to have those changes on my left knee but changed them years ago to free up my left leg to use any pedal or lever needed......JH in Va.
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Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

John, that ball joint screws on to the pedal rod. You might try changing the rod length by screwing that ball joint in or out a bit. (you'll have to loosen the lock nut) That will allow you to raise, or lower, the pedal's angle, and may give you a better leg position to reach the knee lever.

Moving the ball joint to a different position on the pedal will have a similar effect...farther from the pedal bar makes the pedal a little stiffer but shortens the travel, and closer makes it less stiff but lengthens the travel. It's a trade-off.

Although changing pull rod positions on the bellcranks, or the changer, will, in combination with the above adjustments, enable you to set everything up to best fit your body, there will be some trial and error involved. If you're not afraid to jump in the deep end, go for it. The knowledge you gain will last you a lifetime and can be invaluable for working on future steels.

We're always here to help pull you out of the tough spots and over the hills. Very Happy

In my opinion, there's nothing as satisfying as customizing your own guitar for yourself.....except maybe playing it! Laughing

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Best regards,
Mike

Clete Ritta · From: San Antonio, Texas

John,
That's a tricky foot position.
I've found the more acrobatic foot maneuvers are more easily done with soft flexible soles on your shoes than, let's say, cowboy boots. My opinion.

Think like a mountain climber, wrestler or ninja. Their footwear is usually very flexible with a rubber sole to facilitate the agility of motion and grip, as well as helping to feel the surface underneath the foot. My favorite for steelin' are watershoes (made of thin rubber with a mesh top) which are super light and flexible, with a tight fit and great grip.

Practice holding the LKL while going from AB to A, AB to B, and BC to B and BC to C while you're at it. Though you may never use some moves in actual playing, it helps to know what can be done, as options in the future. These are awkward at first, but the more you do it, the easier it becomes.
I tend to concentrate on both sides of the foot as separate entities, the ball of the big toe, and the edge of the pinky toe.
Try these changes without the bar:

Strings 3,4,5,6
AB = A major
AB + F = F augmented
B + F = D minor 6
There's a nice sound to that A pedaling on and off.
Now try going from B+F to BC (F# minor)! Shocked

The last change involves moving the foot across the B pedal while holding it and the F lever. It is depressed initially with the ball of the foot. As the heel moves from its AB to BC position (even though it's off the ground during these moves), the foot shimmies across (like a mountain climber perilously close to the edge) so that the B+F to BC connection can be made and the heel can finally land safely.
Whew!! Laughing

Clete

Carson Leighton · From: N.B. Canada

Man!! I felt like I was climbing a mountain while I was reading that.. Laughing

Clete,,you certainly know how to express yourself,,you should be a writer,,very well put... Wink

John Polstra · From: Lopez Island, WA, USA

I've been away from the forum for a few days (working on a home remodeling project -- ugh), but I just wanted to thank you guys for all the great tips. You've given me a lot to practice and think about.

Clete, I'm glad you mentioned the shoes. I've been wearing Converse All-Stars most of the time. But I tried the move yesterday wearing my slippers (more flexible and also narrower). I found I could do it quite easily in the slippers by lifting my heel as was suggested earlier. Now I just have to find something similar that suits my (ahem) fashion sense a little better. Very Happy

John

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

If your Converse are high tops, that might constrict ankle movement. I don't play in cowboy boots for that reason.

What Jerry Hayes said: my E's up and down are on the right knee (reverse of Jerry's, oddly: E's lower on RKL, E's raise on RKR), so the A + F move is easy. Those always-used KL's on the right can each be used with my cluster of 5 left knee levers, so my combinations are enormous.
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