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Topic: Help needed: Boosting hidden pickup à la National New Yorker |
Nils Fliegner
From:
Germany
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Posted 16 Mar 2010 10:39 am |
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Hi, everybody,
inspired by the "hidden pick up" on early National New Yorkers I put a second p. u. just underneath the fretboard of my Harmony H7 lap steel (see pic).
It does sound nice, but the signal is very weak - small wonder since it is approx. 15 millimeters away from the strings 
To boost the output I need some kind of pre-amp thingy to install inside the electronics cavity, I guess.
But I'm at a total loss as to what to look out for. Good signal quality and small size would be the main considerations...
Can somebody help? Any advice considered  |
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Richard Sevigny
From:
Salmon Arm, BC, Canada
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Posted 16 Mar 2010 10:46 am
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What kind of pickup do you have hidden under there?
If it's a P90, you could try stronger magnets.
The De Armond you have at bridge will pack quite a wallop (love them, can you tell) so you'll have to match that output...
_________________
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If at first the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it.
-Albert Einstein |
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Nils Fliegner
From:
Germany
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Posted 16 Mar 2010 11:27 am
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| Richard, it's a slim humbucking pickup intended for jazz guitars (mounted to the neck). |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2010 3:20 pm
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| Ask Jason Lollar to wind it HOT! |
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Roman Sonnleitner
From:
Vienna, Austria
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 17 Mar 2010 4:56 am
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Since the pickup itself is so far removed from the strings, by boosting the output of the pickup you may just be boosting noise, as the signal to noise ratio will be pretty low, resulting in more ambient noise.
I think the way they did it with the National was just to use it in parallel with another pickup to give a completely different tone. This may be your only option here.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Fred Kinbom
From:
Berlin, Germany, via Stockholm, Sweden.
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Posted 17 Mar 2010 5:37 am
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Guten Tag,
I have two of the old New Yorkers with hidden pickups and they both have much lower output than most electric guitars. They have an amazing sound - very microphonic and warm - but they are not loud. I guess that is maybe the nature of the set-up with the hidden pickups, a very unique and cool sound, but not the most versatile guitar.
Cheers,
Fred
_________________
www.fredrikkinbom.com - New lap steel album out now - listen here: fredrikkinbom.bandcamp.com/album/songs-for-lap-steel-and-harmonium |
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D Schubert
From:
Columbia, MO, USA
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Posted 17 Mar 2010 10:00 am
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Don't know how you've got your guitar wired, but there should be some very interesting combinations with two pickups & dissimilar output:
parallel, in-phase
parallel, out-of-phase
series, in-phase
series, out-of-phase
My frame of reference is a lap-style Telecaster with a Lapdancer Redneck replacing the round neck, Tele-style pickup at the bridge and humbucker-sized P-90 at the neck. You can get each pickup by itself, or all these combinations using a stock Fender 4-way switch and a mini-toggle to reverse the phase of one pickup or the other. The out-of-phase sounds are thin and almost "resophonic", the in-phase sounds are meatier than either pickup alone. |
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Nils Fliegner
From:
Germany
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Posted 17 Mar 2010 10:07 am
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John: I guess there is no way to get inside the pickup. The coil is completely encapsulated.
Roman: Thanks a lot. I will take a close look - just what I had in mind.
Mike: I was hoping that a good quality pre-amp would be able to cope with that problem...
Guten Tag, Fred: So, maybe attenuating the rear pickup and living with the (now equally) low output from both p. u.'s would be the way?
Hmmm, never thought about that.
Thanks to everyone taking the time to help solve the problem! |
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Nils Fliegner
From:
Germany
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Posted 17 Mar 2010 10:08 am
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| To D Schubert: Good point, I will check for the wiring! |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 17 Mar 2010 11:14 am
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| Nils Fliegner wrote: |
Mike: I was hoping that a good quality pre-amp would be able to cope with that problem...
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Nils, what I was referring to is not the usual noise like hiss but, rather, ambient noises. There would much thumping and all that being amplified.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Roman Sonnleitner
From:
Vienna, Austria
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Posted 17 Mar 2010 11:53 am
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
| Nils Fliegner wrote: |
Mike: I was hoping that a good quality pre-amp would be able to cope with that problem...
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Nils, what I was referring to is not the usual noise like hiss but, rather, ambient noises. There would much thumping and all that being amplified. |
But that would only be the case if the pickup was microphonic itself. Otherwise it wouldn't make a difference if the pickup was a high-output model, or if it was low output, and the signal got amplified later... |
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Tom Pettingill
From:
California, USA (deceased)
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Posted 17 Mar 2010 12:55 pm
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A little boost might work ok, but very well might not.
What Mike is talking about is that any pickup is going to have an X amount of noise / noise floor in the signal regardless of output / signal. When you run it through a preamp, you amplify everything, signal and noise floor. In the case of a higher output pickup, the noise floor remains the same, but the output / signal is greater giving you a higher signal to noise ratio.
In a hidden pickup situation, I'd suggest a fairly bright and high output pickup.
_________________
Some misc pics of my hand crafted steels
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Nils Fliegner
From:
Germany
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Posted 18 Mar 2010 12:04 am
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One word of warning in advance...
I have to admit that I'm a techical layman. So some of my following comments may be more grounded in wishful thinking than in cold, hard knowledge!
Signal to noise ratio:
I was under the impression that the noise that is going into the signal chain came mostly from the amplification as the pickup would be passive.
So that I stood a good chance if I used a quality preamp with good electronic parts.
BUT if indeed the noise is already present at the pickup stage then of course any amplification would also raise it
Ambient noises, like clicking and thumping:
Again, I was hoping that a good non-microphonic pickup (the one I used falls into that category) would be helpful
and NOT placing the picking hand directly above the p. u. might also be a good idea.
In the end there is no substitute for simply trying it out, I'm certainly aware of that.
But if I can avoid the most obvious (and costly) pitfalls with the help of my fellow forumites, I will be a happy man  |
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Roman Sonnleitner
From:
Vienna, Austria
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Posted 18 Mar 2010 12:34 am
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Well, do you have some kind of reasonably noise free booster pedal or preamp (or maybe use a compressor or OD pedal, with the effect level turned down all the way and the volume turned up)?
With that you could simulate what an internal preamp would do for your pickup (and noise level), and decide whether it works for you.
Unless the preamp you choose is very noisy by itself, using a preamp closer to the pickup to boost your signal, and turning the amp down should NOT be noisier than leaving the pickup as it is, and turning the amp up; and since the preamp most likely has a low impedance output, the signal reaching the amp should be clearer, too, because of less treble-loss from the guitar cable. |
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Nils Fliegner
From:
Germany
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Posted 18 Mar 2010 2:54 am
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| Roman, thanks for your clever and easy to follow suggestion. I will definitely go that route. |
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