C6 question.

[Laurence Pangaro]

So I've got a musicological question.

Where and when do the C6 tuning originate and/or gain prominence? I could hazard some guesses, but I'd rather see what info y'all have to share.

thanks,
LP

[Ron Whitfield]

Jerry Byrd claimed to have made the 1st recorded example, from '47(?). But it had been used previously by others even tho he said he came up with it on his own, which I believe.

Ray or... will correct me if I'm in error.

Edit: Thanx for the memory freshener, Ray! My can was empty...

[Ray Montee]

Wasn't Jerry claiming he came up with C6th sometime late in 1939 or early 1940?

He was playing C#min. while on the Renfro Valley Barn Dance....WLW Radio in 1939. I have that on tape. I believe he went to Ernest Tubb in 1948 or thereabouts and had C6th in place at that time, however prior to that, he recorded with Pete Cassels and was using C6th at that time.

[Laurence Pangaro]

Interesting.

So were other 6 tunings already widely in circulation when the C6 appears on the scene? My impression is that the first of these tunings was the Hoopii C# minor. Are we to believe that Byrd extrapolated his C6 from this starting point or is there a more complicated thread of evolution? Are there competing theories for the origin of C6?

As a side note, I was looking at Andy Volk's lap steel book, and there's a Gibson advertisement from 1937 for the double neck EH-150. It lists tunings for 6, 7 and 8 strings. There are major, minor and 7 tunings in A and E. There are also major and 7 tunings in C. (No 6 tunings at all!)

Who was using C as a tonal center for tunings first?

Any more thoughts?

ciao,
LP

[Ray Montee]

There are far more musically educated folks here on this Forum than I......but here is my assessment.

Back in the late 1930's, I don't imagine EVERYONE had a steel guitar under their bed. I think they were still a curiosity in many instances. There were very few 'name stars' playing steel and I'd have to imagine they were playing in whatever tuning they devised and strung up. If it made them happy, they used it. Some were never happy and were always experimenting and thus the diverse tunings that in time, became available to us, the late comers.

With some 300 +/- tunings........a player only needs the one that they personally find easy to use and pleasing to their ear.

Most of the players we've grown to know, all started at about the same time. With no internet and telephones an expensive item of the day.....I believe the theory still holds that they found what they liked and used it. They just kept twisting those tuning pegs until they were happiest.

[Jerome Hawkes]

thats what i think too ray - and goes with an earlier post you made about how everyone TODAY has the same style / licks / sound - what we have today is the "benefit" of YEARS of twisting and thinking about the perfect all-in-1 tuning - a 'standardized' tuning. i run across older steelers who used the CRAZIEST tunings but it worked for them because they sat down and figured it out thru trial and much error - someone sitting down at their steel would be lost - stings out of order, dropped, added, etc.
it also makes it REALLY difficult to transcribe the older stuff!!!

this is a good thread - keep em coming - i did not know that byrd was the one who standardized c6 in the 40's - i assumed it was around from the 20's hawaiian craze

[Laurence Pangaro]

Thanks for the input guys. I think you've made me rethink what my question is really about. It's not so much about C6 as it is about understanding the trends that gradually led from the first tunings to those now considered "standard".

As I see it it makes sense that a family of C tunings should arrise. The first tunings were A and E in which the top E strings were the 5th and tonic of the chord respectively. It seems logical that C should come next with that same top E becoming the 3rd. (This development continues with the top E shifting to the 7th, 9th and 11th with F#, D, B tunings - although I think it might be more logical to see these tunings as outgrowths of the A and E tunings.)

I wonder how much information is available and how much is already lost. Most of my musical life is spent playing baroque music, and while there's alot of historical and musical documentation from the period, there's also at least as much left to conjecture. We can't talk to musicians from the 17th century or anybody who's heard those musicicans. We can never know what their playing was like or what their thought processes were.

Anyway, I don't know if anyone's done the research, but I think there may be some interesting history there, and I think it's exciting that this musical world is not so far in the distant past!

ciao,
LP

[Alan Brookes]

On a regular guitar the top 4 strings make a G6 chord when played open. If someone picked up a regular guitar and decided to play it with a tone bar they would automatically be playing in G6. It's a small step from there to downtuning the 5th and 6th strings down a tone to G and D to give a complete 6 string open tuning.

[Mitch Drumm]

Jerry Byrd, February 1939, on the Renfro Valley Barn Dance:

http://picosong.com/n5c

[Laurence Pangaro]

That's true Alan. Yet I find it more likely that these innovations stemmed from the then "standard" tunings of steel - A and E. Another interesting possibilty is that players experimented with lowering the third in a 7 tuning resulting in a m7 tuning, i.e. a M6 tuning. For example, lowering the C# in A7 to a C natural gives us.... C6!

LP

[Alan Brookes]

Jerry Byrd, February 1939, on the Renfro Valley Barn Dance:
http://picosong.com/n5c

I've never heard slants so evident in an audio track with no video. You can almost see him playing.

[John Ed Kelly]

Lawrence Pangaro writes, "....Most of my musical life is spent playing baroque music...."

That's interesting Lawrence. Have you played the baroque style on your steel? What is your main instrument?

Some J S Bach pieces would seem to be a good fit for SG......''Jesu......" comes to mind, Brandenberg part 3 (I think) also would sound interesting.

JK

[Laurence Pangaro]

Hey there JK,

My main instrument is viola da gamba (by way of electric guitar when I was a lad).

I have toyed with the idea of some crossover steel guitar projects for my own amusement. That said I think these sorts of things present numerous challenges especially in the realm taste. One would need a real sense of comfort in two different styles/traditions. More often that not I find crossover in either direction ("classical" -> "popular" or vice versa) smacks of bad taste even when interesting.

As you said though, Bach seems to adapt nicely to numerous styles/approaches. That said, to get into that world on a steel I think I'd have to upgrade to eight strings and a fancier tuning.

ciao,
Laurence

(p.s. Sorry about the off topic-ness of this post.)

[Warren Slavin]

To all concerned on the origin of the C6th tuning:

Referring to Jerry Byrd's autobiography "It Was A Trip On Wings Of Music" Jerry discusses the evolution of the tunings for the Steel Guitar and how he arrived at the C6th tuning. If you don't have a copy of Jerry's book, I'm sure you can get a copy from Scotty in St Louis.

Warren

[Alan Brookes]

Yes, most of us have read how Jerry arrived at the C6 tuning. I've read that book from cover to cover many times. In fact it's crossed the Atlantic with me on many a long flight. But Jerry's explanation doesn't mean he was the first, just that great minds think alike. I suspect that most tunings are invented by several people, working completely independent of each other.

[Ron Whitfield]

Jerry Byrd, February 1939, on the Renfro Valley Barn Dance:
http://picosong.com/n5c

Anybody else having trouble getting this to play?

[Ray Montee]

It came right up for me several days ago and just a moment ago as well.

No problem on this end.

[J D Sauser]

C6th is a CHORD.
6th chords have been "discovered", not "invented" and that, long before anybody applied them to steel guitar is.
Now, I understand that the OP inquired about the TUNING (C6th) but I think that if it really is of interest, maybe a more enlightening approach to seeking historical insight would rather be to reconstruct who started using a 6th chord tuning. The question could them be, if a C#m7 can be rated as a 6th tuning?
Essentially, I think the question could boil down to find out who came up with using a chord tuning including 2nd intervals?


... J-D.

[Guy Cundell]

It worked fine for me. Thank you very much, Mitch.

I have become very interested in this area since I found my first Sol Hoopii recording (Fascinating Rhythm 1938)and transcribed it.
(posted at http://www.guycundell.com/downloads/steel-guitar/)

I have since obtained more recordings and the earliest C#m tuning I can detect is the 1934 recording of Hula Blues. (Feb 19th LA 122A Br 55075) Correct me if I am wrong.

In Stacey Philips book "The Art of Hawaiian Steel Guitar 1) he holds that Sol developed both C#m and Bm tuning which he derived from E and D tunings that he regularly used.

It seems fairly clear that JBs innovation was an adaption of Sol's tuning with the later C# bass to create C6/A7 being a stroke of JB genius.

While I was transcribing the Fascinating Rhythm chord solo it rang a familiar note. I was sure that I had heard something similar on acoustic spanish and I finally found it in my collection, on vinyl, form CBS collection, 50 Years of Jazz Guitar. "Add a Little Wiggle" by Eddie Lang March 29th, 1928.
An excerpt can be found at http://www.guycundell.com/downloads/

Call it drawing a long bow but I hear similarities in the 6th voicings, the parallel chord movement and the whole approach of improvised chord rhythm around a basic figure.

[Guy Cundell]

Where did the 6th chord come from? One possible explanation for the popularization of the 6th chord is the development of the identities of brass and reed by the big band arrangers of the late 20s, Don Redmond, Ellington etc. The "thickened line" uses many 6th chords to harmonise a melody for 4 instruments without doubling notes while not introducing too much harmonic colour that may work against the melody.

[J D Sauser]

Where did the 6th chord come from? One possible explanation for the popularization of the 6th chord is the development of the identities of brass and reed by the big band arrangers of the late 20s, Don Redmond, Ellington etc. The "thickened line" uses many 6th chords to harmonise a melody for 4 instruments without doubling notes while not introducing too much harmonic colour that may work against the melody.

Many "schooled" musicians seem to hear the 6th chord as a minor (the 6th effectively being the root the the minor 7th).
I would suspect that it was early Jazz which started to impose that chord on our ears as a Mayor 6th(?)... But then, I wasn't even in the making then... not even my dad was.
Interestingly, M7th's can be heard all over classical music, a chord which with it's minor second interval really can challenge ones ears.

Maybe PSG player Mike Perlowin could share some historical insight, him being the one who took the steel on a deep dive into classical music.


... J-D.

[John Ed Kelly]

''My main instrument is viola da gamba"

Laurence, I suspect that some of your pieces for this instrument would be appropriate possibly? I don't know the classical world much, but, would the glissandi and double stopping used on the VDG, work on the SG?

[Warren Slavin]

Ron, I had no problem bringing up the JB playing Steel at the Renfro Valley Barn Dance. I used to listen to them on the Radio when I was a kid -- or maybe younger than now.

Thanks Ray for posting.

Warren

[Alan Brookes]

...My main instrument is viola da gamba ... I have toyed with the idea of some crossover steel guitar projects for my own amusement...

You're not alone in that thinking, Laurence. Since the 70s I've been building mediæval instruments and playing them.
Check out this...
http://www.7161.com/css_track.cfm?track ... k_id=19169
It's from my CD "Mediæval & Traditional" that I recorded about 20 years ago. On this particular track the instruments are two citterns and a tamborine. Also on the album are lutes, rebecs, board zithers, 8-string mediæval guitars, psalteries, etc. I multiple track them, one instrument at a time.
I've been thinking of doing an album with steel guitars and early instruments for some time.
Mike Perlowin has been doing similar work, though he works mainly with classical pieces and I work mainly with folk music.

[Laurence Pangaro]

Alan,

That totally brings me back to my crumhorn days! Lamento di Tristano is such a lovely little things, isn't it?

Have you ever built a viol?

LP