thanks mike - great thread - since i've been hanging out over here in the non-pedal section, there is a lot better thread quality going on than you know where..
i got your Steelin from the Masters and it occurred to me that you would be the one to dive into this subject, as you briefly touched on toward the end of the DVD. i was actually going to drop you an email to say INCLUDE MORE of this on the next series - yet you jumped in with this excellent thread.
most of us taking up the steel are coming from a guitar background - i would image - the "problem" is that on the non-pedal steel, we have to think in smaller units (for the most part) - and these can be frustrating when you are trying to "line up" the intervals you need. guitarist are shape oriented - either with chords, intervals, etc and all this is thrown out the window on the steel. we HEAR a 5th, 4th, tritone and RELATE the sound to the SHAPE - i dont see that connection with steel - so far in my piddling with it - sometimes i think you are better off coming to straight steel from a single line instrument like trumpet or something - when you get spoiled by a big harmonic spectrum with a piano or guitar and have to now boil it down to what you can grip in a line (harmonicly).
thus, what we have to learn is exactly what you are teaching - how many places can i get the sound/character of the chord without going to the same old "home" fret/grip. my main trouble is that i've always been taught to use guide tone lines (3rds/7ths) and they are killing me on the steel as i cant keep my voices from jumping around and i hate that - i know it can be done, i'm just not there yet.
Harmony and chord theory for steel players
Moderator: Brad Bechtel
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Jerome Hawkes
- Posts: 1385
- Joined: 8 May 2009 7:16 am
- Location: Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
Supper Time!
I always wanted to have my own cooking show, but I can't cook very well and I'm not much of a personality, so I'll stick to this stuff. Time to start the main course.
Matt, it's cool that you've learned to appreciate the value of the ii-V-I cadence. You made a point of mentioning that the chords are all diatonic, which is true, but is only a small part of the puzzle. The truth is, very few players stay within the framework of a diatonic scale when approaching ii-V7s (Mickey Baker was holding out on the good stuff). That sound is not very challenging. When you hear players like Buddy Emmons or Joaquin Murphey, or any Jazz musician for that matter, the approach to ii-Vs is much more adventurous. A diatonic V7 chord is one that needs to be resolved, but not with the kind of urgency that you feel when you hear an altered dominant chord, such as a C7b5b9, or even a C+7 (the augmented 5 being a particularly popular choice on steel guitar). A good player will outline these chords in their playing, even when the rhythm section is just playing vanilla changes. What makes Jazz so great is the sympatico between the musicians. For an example of this in the extreme, listen to Herbie Hancock in the 60s when he's comping behind anyone. It's even more amazing in the 70s when he was playing behind Joe Farrell.
But I digress....
Anyway, a player like Wes Montgomery would take the 12-bar Blues form that we looked at above:
/C C7/ F7 /C / C7/F7/ F7/ C / C7/ G7 /G7 / C /G7 /, and he would make changes to it which would reflect the use of the tritone that we also mentioned above. The way he might do this would be to substitute an F#7 for C7 in bar 4, but making it even more interesting by introducing the ii, in this case C#-7, so that now the first 5 bars would look like this:
/C C7 / F7 / C / C#-7 F#7 /F7.....
See how that worked? We substituted the tritone to give the bass line chromatic motion and introduce
more interesting extensions that have an urgent quality to them.
Let's look at the 2 chords in question, C7 and F#7. The notes are C E G Bb and F# A# C# E. OK, you can see they both have E in common and Bb (A#)(remember, that is our tritone interval). Now, in the context of C7, if we were to look again at out C scale (C D E F G A B C) and now identify all of our chord tones, we could come up with a name for this chord--C (root), E (3rd), G (5th), Bb (b7), F# (#11, not b5, since we already have a perfect 5th in our chord), A# (same as Bb), C# (b9). So, by combining the 2 chords, C7 and F#7, we have a C7b9#11 chord, which is an altered dominant chord. This chord would act as the V7 going to F.
Now, you might ask, "What the heck do I play over that?" You have choices, but the best way to figure it out is by looking again at our notes. By the way, let's change the sharps to their enharmonic equivalents for consistency sake. We have C, Db, E, Gb, G, Bb. Only 6 notes (hexatonic), but there are
several gaps which we can fill to give us a few more notes. Notice the gaps between Db and E and G and Bb? Well, we can squeeze another note in each place. Let's try Eb and A (which also happens to
be a tritone, what a coincidence!) The reason I chose these notes is because if I'd have chosen D and Ab, we would have had 3 successive semi-tones twice in our scale. That's fine for playing passing
tones, but as a scale, meh....
So now our scale is C Db Eb E Gb G A Bb C. My friends, I'd like you to meet the 1/2 step Whole Step Diminished Scale. See the pattern? It is a scale of beautiful symmetry and sound, one of the greatest devices a soloist could ever ask for.
It seems so complex, doesn't it? But in reality, all we really did was add F#7 to C7. This is called a polychord. More on polychords to come. This is one of the main ways I approach music these days.
I'm going to go and cook dinner now. It's either I torture my kids with this stuff, or dinner. I think they'd prefer dinner.
Matt, it's cool that you've learned to appreciate the value of the ii-V-I cadence. You made a point of mentioning that the chords are all diatonic, which is true, but is only a small part of the puzzle. The truth is, very few players stay within the framework of a diatonic scale when approaching ii-V7s (Mickey Baker was holding out on the good stuff). That sound is not very challenging. When you hear players like Buddy Emmons or Joaquin Murphey, or any Jazz musician for that matter, the approach to ii-Vs is much more adventurous. A diatonic V7 chord is one that needs to be resolved, but not with the kind of urgency that you feel when you hear an altered dominant chord, such as a C7b5b9, or even a C+7 (the augmented 5 being a particularly popular choice on steel guitar). A good player will outline these chords in their playing, even when the rhythm section is just playing vanilla changes. What makes Jazz so great is the sympatico between the musicians. For an example of this in the extreme, listen to Herbie Hancock in the 60s when he's comping behind anyone. It's even more amazing in the 70s when he was playing behind Joe Farrell.
But I digress....
Anyway, a player like Wes Montgomery would take the 12-bar Blues form that we looked at above:
/C C7/ F7 /C / C7/F7/ F7/ C / C7/ G7 /G7 / C /G7 /, and he would make changes to it which would reflect the use of the tritone that we also mentioned above. The way he might do this would be to substitute an F#7 for C7 in bar 4, but making it even more interesting by introducing the ii, in this case C#-7, so that now the first 5 bars would look like this:
/C C7 / F7 / C / C#-7 F#7 /F7.....
See how that worked? We substituted the tritone to give the bass line chromatic motion and introduce
more interesting extensions that have an urgent quality to them.
Let's look at the 2 chords in question, C7 and F#7. The notes are C E G Bb and F# A# C# E. OK, you can see they both have E in common and Bb (A#)(remember, that is our tritone interval). Now, in the context of C7, if we were to look again at out C scale (C D E F G A B C) and now identify all of our chord tones, we could come up with a name for this chord--C (root), E (3rd), G (5th), Bb (b7), F# (#11, not b5, since we already have a perfect 5th in our chord), A# (same as Bb), C# (b9). So, by combining the 2 chords, C7 and F#7, we have a C7b9#11 chord, which is an altered dominant chord. This chord would act as the V7 going to F.
Now, you might ask, "What the heck do I play over that?" You have choices, but the best way to figure it out is by looking again at our notes. By the way, let's change the sharps to their enharmonic equivalents for consistency sake. We have C, Db, E, Gb, G, Bb. Only 6 notes (hexatonic), but there are
several gaps which we can fill to give us a few more notes. Notice the gaps between Db and E and G and Bb? Well, we can squeeze another note in each place. Let's try Eb and A (which also happens to
be a tritone, what a coincidence!) The reason I chose these notes is because if I'd have chosen D and Ab, we would have had 3 successive semi-tones twice in our scale. That's fine for playing passing
tones, but as a scale, meh....
So now our scale is C Db Eb E Gb G A Bb C. My friends, I'd like you to meet the 1/2 step Whole Step Diminished Scale. See the pattern? It is a scale of beautiful symmetry and sound, one of the greatest devices a soloist could ever ask for.
It seems so complex, doesn't it? But in reality, all we really did was add F#7 to C7. This is called a polychord. More on polychords to come. This is one of the main ways I approach music these days.
I'm going to go and cook dinner now. It's either I torture my kids with this stuff, or dinner. I think they'd prefer dinner.
Last edited by Mike Neer on 8 Mar 2010 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sonny Jenkins
- Posts: 4376
- Joined: 19 Sep 2000 12:01 am
- Location: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
Sonny, the dashes just represent a quarter note, they have nothing to do with chord itself, except in the case of the C#-7. Actually, I've gone back and deleted the dashes just to avoid further confusion. Thanks for pointing that out to me.
Jerome, it took me a few years to stop trying to play guitar on the steel. I don't know that I've been completely successful, but at least I'm aware of it. I am seeing that some of my guitar stuff will really help me in the direction I'm heading, so in a way, I don't want to lose it all. Another thing, I'm only about 30% as comfortable with C6 as I am with other tunings, but I can play better stuff on it. I've only played C6 now for about a year, so I'm constantly discovering new things. I think some of it is the fact that, as a guitarist, it was so foreign to me, that I may very well see things that others don't. I really like to play up and down the neck.
Someone mentioned earlier about Buddy Emmons talking about pockets (that's a great term for it--I call them zones), but one thing I can say is that someone else's pockets won't work for me; I have to do the work myself. The way I look at it is this: depending on the chord I'm playing over--whether major, minor, dominant--I pair it with another chord. So, if I'm playing over a Cmaj7 chord, I might use C and G, or to get a lydian sound, go C and D. This is a triadic approach to playing. You have to have a second chord to pivot off of. Did you ever hear the way Jazz players bounce around the notes of the chord? They use what is called approach notes. Approach notes can be chromatic, they can be scale tones; there are many way to do it. I like to have another chord, very often a secondary dominant chord, to bounce off of. That is how I create my zones.
Jerome, it took me a few years to stop trying to play guitar on the steel. I don't know that I've been completely successful, but at least I'm aware of it. I am seeing that some of my guitar stuff will really help me in the direction I'm heading, so in a way, I don't want to lose it all. Another thing, I'm only about 30% as comfortable with C6 as I am with other tunings, but I can play better stuff on it. I've only played C6 now for about a year, so I'm constantly discovering new things. I think some of it is the fact that, as a guitarist, it was so foreign to me, that I may very well see things that others don't. I really like to play up and down the neck.
Someone mentioned earlier about Buddy Emmons talking about pockets (that's a great term for it--I call them zones), but one thing I can say is that someone else's pockets won't work for me; I have to do the work myself. The way I look at it is this: depending on the chord I'm playing over--whether major, minor, dominant--I pair it with another chord. So, if I'm playing over a Cmaj7 chord, I might use C and G, or to get a lydian sound, go C and D. This is a triadic approach to playing. You have to have a second chord to pivot off of. Did you ever hear the way Jazz players bounce around the notes of the chord? They use what is called approach notes. Approach notes can be chromatic, they can be scale tones; there are many way to do it. I like to have another chord, very often a secondary dominant chord, to bounce off of. That is how I create my zones.
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Clete Ritta
- Posts: 2005
- Joined: 5 Jun 2009 6:58 pm
- Location: San Antonio, Texas
Mike,
Great thread! I have studied theory a little over the years, but really not much of a sight-reader. I could usually figure out names to simple chords, but extended jazz chords always threw me for a loop. For instance, learning a Steely Dan song by ear on piano, I often would break chords up on the piano into left hand bass and right hand triad. Since I didnt know what to call many of these chords, I would just write C/D to imply a C major chord in the right hand over a D bass in the left hand, instead of D11(?). Your first post in this thread reminded me of this way of looking at complex chords.
Clete
Great thread! I have studied theory a little over the years, but really not much of a sight-reader. I could usually figure out names to simple chords, but extended jazz chords always threw me for a loop. For instance, learning a Steely Dan song by ear on piano, I often would break chords up on the piano into left hand bass and right hand triad. Since I didnt know what to call many of these chords, I would just write C/D to imply a C major chord in the right hand over a D bass in the left hand, instead of D11(?). Your first post in this thread reminded me of this way of looking at complex chords.
Clete
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Matt Couch
- Posts: 14
- Joined: 22 Feb 2010 8:44 am
- Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Dang...this will give me something to chew on for the next long while...
Thanks Mike! This kind of stuff is the reason I joined this forum.
Cheers!
Thanks Mike! This kind of stuff is the reason I joined this forum.
Cheers!
Gear: 1 old, dirty, beat-up Maverick.
"You need your headspace and timing adjusted?"
"If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid."
"I like to keep a bottle of stimulant handy in case I see a snake, which I also keep handy." -W.C. Fields
"You need your headspace and timing adjusted?"
"If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid."
"I like to keep a bottle of stimulant handy in case I see a snake, which I also keep handy." -W.C. Fields
Clete, more than you ever want to know about SD 9th chords can be found here: http://www.hakwright.co.uk/steelydan/mu-major.html
Mike, is there any way to approximate Baxter's work on the early SD LP's on lap steel? Pulls/slants to get some of those great shifting sounds, like on "Brooklyn"?
Mike, is there any way to approximate Baxter's work on the early SD LP's on lap steel? Pulls/slants to get some of those great shifting sounds, like on "Brooklyn"?
Re: Supper Time!
Yeah, Mike, but my jazz combo ain't that adventurous (I play Fender bass, not steel). We're just trying not to disservice the tunes. I like to tell people I play at jazz.Mike Neer wrote:
Matt, it's cool that you've learned to appreciate the value of the ii-V-I cadence. You made a point of mentioning that the chords are all diatonic, which is true, but is only a small part of the puzzle. The truth is, very few players stay within the framework of a diatonic scale when approaching ii-V7s (Mickey Baker was holding out on the good stuff). That sound is not very challenging. When you hear players like Buddy Emmons or Joaquin Murphey, or any Jazz musician for that matter, the approach to ii-Vs is much more adventurous. A diatonic V7 chord is one that needs to be resolved, but not with the kind of urgency that you feel when you hear an altered dominant chord, such as a C7b5b9, or even a C+7 (the augmented 5 being a particularly popular choice on steel guitar). A good player will outline these chords in their playing, even when the rhythm section is just playing vanilla changes. What makes Jazz so great is the sympatico between the musicians. For an example of this in the extreme, listen to Herbie Hancock in the 60s when he's comping behind anyone. It's even more amazing in the 70s when he was playing behind Joe Farrell.
But I digress....
So now our scale is C Db Eb E Gb G A Bb C. My friends, I'd like you to meet the 1/2 step Whole Step Diminished Scale. See the pattern? It is a scale of beautiful symmetry and sound, one of the greatest devices a soloist could ever ask for.
It seems so complex, doesn't it? But in reality, all we really did was add F#7 to C7. This is called a polychord. More on polychords to come. This is one of the main ways I approach music these days.
Anyway, I think the term cadence when applied to ii V I is somewhat of a misnomer, as this pattern appears so frequently, and often many secondary dominants are chained together in lots of standards. I mean, to me cadence implies something that occurs right before the end of a major section, and these suckers are all over many of the standards.
I gotta admit, I never tried the Whole Step Diminished Scale. I promise to jam it into some bass solo at the next rehearsal, and report back to you how badly I pooched it!
i think this is really great stuff but in the interest of reducing the glazed eye contingent, that will then go on to look for the next nifty piece of equipment to elevate them, im digging up an old post from mike ihde that helped me.
http://steelguitarforum.com/Archives/Ar ... 12993.html
so his catch is you have to know how to spell the chord but what i got from it is that you are only a half step away from playing the right note at any time. so i think for single lines it is more important to hear intervals, as in singing what you would like to play in your mind, and knowing how to get it on your instrument. these half steps comprise the voice leading component of the harmony by supplying the tensions so they may be internalized by the practicer in many different ways. i really appreciate the information in this thread but i dont want to see others bail on it just because they perceive the barrier to entry as too high.
http://steelguitarforum.com/Archives/Ar ... 12993.html
so his catch is you have to know how to spell the chord but what i got from it is that you are only a half step away from playing the right note at any time. so i think for single lines it is more important to hear intervals, as in singing what you would like to play in your mind, and knowing how to get it on your instrument. these half steps comprise the voice leading component of the harmony by supplying the tensions so they may be internalized by the practicer in many different ways. i really appreciate the information in this thread but i dont want to see others bail on it just because they perceive the barrier to entry as too high.
I hear you, Ed, but the good news is that this thread will always be here. I tried to point out a few prerequisites (I think, I can't really remember and I just hate to go back re-read what I've written), at least stuff that I view as essential to understanding harmony.ebb wrote:i really appreciate the information in this thread but i dont want to see others bail on it because they perceive the barrier to entry as too high.
I just started to write another post about half an hour ago, and then I thought "Hmm, not yet." There are times when I read things that people have written about music theory and all when I admit, even though I had a firm grasp on it before, that I have no idea what they are talking about. Sometimes I think it might be my reading comprehension and other times I'm pretty sure they're not communicating it properly. Now that you've pointed out the glazed eye factor, I'll do my best to avoid making that happen. Part of me doing this is to reconcile my own thought process on this stuff, as it's always evolving, so the desire to start from step 1 is low. There are already many sources for that information, so please, by all means, post them.
And the other thing--you still have to play music. Knowing all this stuff doesn't guarantee that, that's for sure. But it definitely does help you to hear better and understand how to create sounds with the purpose of playing what you hear internally.
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Former Member
- Posts: 355
- Joined: 11 Jun 2008 7:35 am
Mike,
I just wanted to thank you for taking the time...
Between you and Alan Akaka, I've been re-inspired to get into this instrument like nothing before.
While my eyes glazed up quick, there is a small light still gleaming way down the hall, and I'm confident that with some effort I'll get there. I've always wanted to know music theory, and just reading a few sentences takes me out of my day to day hassles, and into this cool magic mystery. Like you said, it will always be here, and I have it bookmarked. Hope you keep taking us along!
I just wanted to thank you for taking the time...
Between you and Alan Akaka, I've been re-inspired to get into this instrument like nothing before.
While my eyes glazed up quick, there is a small light still gleaming way down the hall, and I'm confident that with some effort I'll get there. I've always wanted to know music theory, and just reading a few sentences takes me out of my day to day hassles, and into this cool magic mystery. Like you said, it will always be here, and I have it bookmarked. Hope you keep taking us along!
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Gary Meixner
- Posts: 238
- Joined: 9 Sep 2009 3:48 pm
- Location: New York, USA
Mike,
This is great stuff and very well written. You have done an excellent job of jumping into the middle of a subject and making it understandable.
It is surprising the number of really good musicians that turn and run as fast as they can from the subject of music theory. Learning theory will never hurt, and once you start to integrate this knowledge into your daily practice it is remarkable how much more efficient your learning becomes.
All aspects of your playing improve. You definitely benefit when engaging more parts of your brain. It is like Napoleon (I think it was Napoleon) who said "I will bring all of the forces under my command to the point of attack" or something like that.
I have had a book in my music library for many years titled "Artful Arpeggios" by Don Mock. When I started playing steel guitar it became a very practical tool for demonstrating the incredible flexibility of harmony. It seems to be very well suited to the C6 or C13 tuned steel guitar. I would encourage everyone to look for this book and jump into the study of theory with both feet.
Keep the posts coming, they are very much appreciated.
Gary
This is great stuff and very well written. You have done an excellent job of jumping into the middle of a subject and making it understandable.
It is surprising the number of really good musicians that turn and run as fast as they can from the subject of music theory. Learning theory will never hurt, and once you start to integrate this knowledge into your daily practice it is remarkable how much more efficient your learning becomes.
All aspects of your playing improve. You definitely benefit when engaging more parts of your brain. It is like Napoleon (I think it was Napoleon) who said "I will bring all of the forces under my command to the point of attack" or something like that.
I have had a book in my music library for many years titled "Artful Arpeggios" by Don Mock. When I started playing steel guitar it became a very practical tool for demonstrating the incredible flexibility of harmony. It seems to be very well suited to the C6 or C13 tuned steel guitar. I would encourage everyone to look for this book and jump into the study of theory with both feet.
Keep the posts coming, they are very much appreciated.
Gary
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Gary Stevenson
- Posts: 324
- Joined: 18 Sep 2006 12:01 am
- Location: Northern New York,USA
guitar based dummies
When I read that you only used c6 part of the time,I had made an attempt at c6 but could not seem to get my head around it.I ended up using open E and a lot of what you have talked about seems to be over my head.I also play by ear. The biggest problem I seem to have is getting a decent melody line,when I am given a lead or fill.Starting to get a handle on where the notes are in open E. I seem to have the melody in my head sometimes and then get lost where to find it.I am going to have to read this post a dozen times to see if I can get how it might apply to the tuning I am using.Yes I should learn C6, but get real lost when trying to use it.I am now playing blues and Rock with a jam band and am not sure I could learn C6 well enough to get by.comments are certainly welcome!!!
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Roy Thomson
- Posts: 4386
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Wolfville, Nova Scotia,Canada
Hi,
I have done a little course entitled:
"Shortcuts to Chord Location for C6th Lap Steel"
It is available and you can get information
by clicking on my signature below.
I am not knocking theory...I encourage people
to persue......
You may save some time if you contact me.
Roy
I have done a little course entitled:
"Shortcuts to Chord Location for C6th Lap Steel"
It is available and you can get information
by clicking on my signature below.
I am not knocking theory...I encourage people
to persue......
You may save some time if you contact me.
Roy
Custom Tabs Various Tunings
Courses Lap Steel, Pedal Steel
Courses Lap Steel, Pedal Steel
Gary, don't despair. It really took me quite a few years to finally knuckle down with C6 and I'm glad I did. I resisted far too long; guess I wanted to see if this steel guitar thing was going to be a passing phase. 
In this thread, I haven't gotten into applying all this stuff to C6 or any other tuning--it's been more of a primer at this point. I still believe the way to go about actually learning to gain confidence and ability in C6 is to learn the standard steel guitar pieces that use this tuning--tunes like Steelin' The Blues and, frankly, any of the Jerry Byrd stuff. If you play guitar, you can always refer back to your guitar to see why things work the way they do and compare notes.
Like I said earlier, getting familiar with the intervals in your tuning is very important. Standard guitar is tuned in 4ths and a Maj 3rd (strings 2 and 3). These same intervals exist in C6, but you have to know where to find them. Strings 1 and 2 are tuned a Maj 3rd apart, same as strings 2 and 3 in guitar. Strings 2 and 4 are tuned a 4th apart, and so are strings 3 and 5. A lot of the same things you play on guitar, you can play in C6--all the major and minor pentatonic scales, for one. It will click eventually.
I didn't dare use C6 on a gig until I was certain I could play the way I wanted on it. I made the mistake once of bringing C6 on a gig when it was still new and everyone suffered for my mistake. Now I can play a full gig on a C6 neck, although there are other sounds I'm looking for that I can't get with it. That's the whole point of this thread, really; being able to identify in your head the sounds you want to play and not just letting the tuning control your playing.
Thanks, Roy. I'm sure that will be of benefit to a number of people. There will always be plenty of people who don't connect with the theory side of things, but doesn't mean they are any less of a player. I basically taught myself this stuff from a young age and through trial and error was able to stay on the right path with it. I usually make the comparison to the engineer and the technician--I would say that I fall into the technician category more than the engineer because I am very practical about it and I don't get too carried away with it. First of all, the music has to be tolerant of harmonic explorations--to force it in where it doesn't belong could end up in a disaster (or maybe not--this is sometimes where the crafty musician lives).
Still, I want to make it clear that I encourage the pursuit of knowledge of music theory wholeheartedly. It won't hurt you.
In this thread, I haven't gotten into applying all this stuff to C6 or any other tuning--it's been more of a primer at this point. I still believe the way to go about actually learning to gain confidence and ability in C6 is to learn the standard steel guitar pieces that use this tuning--tunes like Steelin' The Blues and, frankly, any of the Jerry Byrd stuff. If you play guitar, you can always refer back to your guitar to see why things work the way they do and compare notes.
Like I said earlier, getting familiar with the intervals in your tuning is very important. Standard guitar is tuned in 4ths and a Maj 3rd (strings 2 and 3). These same intervals exist in C6, but you have to know where to find them. Strings 1 and 2 are tuned a Maj 3rd apart, same as strings 2 and 3 in guitar. Strings 2 and 4 are tuned a 4th apart, and so are strings 3 and 5. A lot of the same things you play on guitar, you can play in C6--all the major and minor pentatonic scales, for one. It will click eventually.
I didn't dare use C6 on a gig until I was certain I could play the way I wanted on it. I made the mistake once of bringing C6 on a gig when it was still new and everyone suffered for my mistake. Now I can play a full gig on a C6 neck, although there are other sounds I'm looking for that I can't get with it. That's the whole point of this thread, really; being able to identify in your head the sounds you want to play and not just letting the tuning control your playing.
Thanks, Roy. I'm sure that will be of benefit to a number of people. There will always be plenty of people who don't connect with the theory side of things, but doesn't mean they are any less of a player. I basically taught myself this stuff from a young age and through trial and error was able to stay on the right path with it. I usually make the comparison to the engineer and the technician--I would say that I fall into the technician category more than the engineer because I am very practical about it and I don't get too carried away with it. First of all, the music has to be tolerant of harmonic explorations--to force it in where it doesn't belong could end up in a disaster (or maybe not--this is sometimes where the crafty musician lives).
Still, I want to make it clear that I encourage the pursuit of knowledge of music theory wholeheartedly. It won't hurt you.
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Steve Ahola
- Posts: 1004
- Joined: 26 Jan 2010 3:45 pm
- Location: Concord, California
- Contact:
I have taken the liberty of converting the first 39 posts of this thread into an Adobe Acrobat PDF file accessible from this link:
http://tinyurl.com/harmony-theory
If anybody objects to having one of their posts included in the PDF file let me know.
Steve "The Mad PDF-er" Ahola
P.S. I set the page size to 17" by 22" so that I could fit all of the posts on 14 pages. (My first attempt using a letter size format resulted in 44 pages.)
Depending on your computer it might work better to download the file and then open that in Acrobat.
http://tinyurl.com/harmony-theory
If anybody objects to having one of their posts included in the PDF file let me know.
Steve "The Mad PDF-er" Ahola
P.S. I set the page size to 17" by 22" so that I could fit all of the posts on 14 pages. (My first attempt using a letter size format resulted in 44 pages.)
Depending on your computer it might work better to download the file and then open that in Acrobat.
Re: Supper Time!
OK, so it worked for me over a vi ii7 V I, and then I tried it again, and it didn't. Don't ask me what was going on the second time, or for that matter, the first, and what was different. But I did hear myself playing something new for me, which I gotta admit is not as good as hearing what I play before I play it, but it did feel like I added a new tool to the kit.Matt Berg wrote: I never tried the Whole Step Diminished Scale. I promise to jam it into some bass solo at the next rehearsal, and report back to you how badly I pooched it!
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Steve Ahola
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Re: Supper Time!
My brother (a jazz sax player) played that scale for me and asked me to guess what it was. "Some sort of blues scale?" Nope, it was the diminished scale only it started on the second note rather than the tonic (the diminished scale turned inside out, so to speak). I guess I always called it the alternate diminished scale...Matt Berg wrote:OK, so it worked for me over a vi ii7 V I, and then I tried it again, and it didn't. Don't ask me what was going on the second time, or for that matter, the first, and what was different. But I did hear myself playing something new for me, which I gotta admit is not as good as hearing what I play before I play it, but it did feel like I added a new tool to the kit.Matt Berg wrote: I never tried the Whole Step Diminished Scale. I promise to jam it into some bass solo at the next rehearsal, and report back to you how badly I pooched it!
In any case it is great for leads, and can work on top of a lot of different chords. But I am thinking of a regular guitar playing a blues or rock solo which doesn't necessarily match all of the chords (rather than playing chord tones you basically try to avoid those notes which clash with the chords).
It is a great scale and I need to dig it out from the bottom of my toolbox.
Steve Ahola
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Don Kona Woods
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Rick Winfield
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Thanks
THIS IS GREAT STUFF !
Clearly explained, logically "laid out"
A huge contribution !
Thanks for all your hard work
rick
Clearly explained, logically "laid out"
A huge contribution !
Thanks for all your hard work
rick
Re: Supper Time!
Reminds me how many Guitar Player interviews and liner notes I've read where the guitarist states something like, "I never listened much to other guitarists, just Charlie Parker, or Sonny Rollins..."Steve Ahola wrote:
My brother (a jazz sax player) played that scale for me
Too bad MY brother's a drummer, grrrr....
If I can add anything to this already great thread it would be through applying some of the theory already mentioned.Mike mentioned and laid out the half-whole diminished scale.[C,Db,Eb,E,F#,G,A,Bb,C].These notes are laid out on frets 0, 3, 6,9, 12.Note this scale contains the chord C7 [C,E,G,Bb]so use this scale to solo over dominant7 chords , particularly so if they contain the b9 [in this case C7b9 has the Db]I memorise this pattern beginning from home base [in this case C ] and then moving up or down in 3 fret[or multiples of 3] intervals.
The other diminished scale to know is the whole-half scale which goes [again C e.g.] C,D,Eb,F,F#,G#,A,B,C.These notes are found across frets -1[this is just to show that you actually start this pattern one fret below your home position] 2,5,8,11[same as -1].Use this scale to play over diminished7 chords e.g.Cdim7.I memorise this position for dim7 chords by starting one fret below the home position for the diminished chord and then moving up or down by 3 frets or multiples of.
The above fret positions are for C or C6 tuning.But the basic plan applies for any major [or 6th] tuning you use.You are basically using other major chord positions to gain instant access to these diminished scales.
The other diminished scale to know is the whole-half scale which goes [again C e.g.] C,D,Eb,F,F#,G#,A,B,C.These notes are found across frets -1[this is just to show that you actually start this pattern one fret below your home position] 2,5,8,11[same as -1].Use this scale to play over diminished7 chords e.g.Cdim7.I memorise this position for dim7 chords by starting one fret below the home position for the diminished chord and then moving up or down by 3 frets or multiples of.
The above fret positions are for C or C6 tuning.But the basic plan applies for any major [or 6th] tuning you use.You are basically using other major chord positions to gain instant access to these diminished scales.
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John D. Carter
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C7 Confusion.
Someone help me out. Is a C7 chord played with a B natural or B flat? B natural is the 7th of the C scale but when the resolution is to an F chord the B flat is used? I am confused here. Thanks.
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John D. Carter
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