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Topic: Volume pedal :Impedence matching |
Todd Brown
From:
W. Columbia , South Carolina
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Posted 20 Feb 2010 9:58 am |
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You guys let me know if I'm thinking right here.
I'm running a ProII into a Boss DD3 into a Goodrich L120 with Tom Bradshaw's Dunlop pot, then in to a 112.
Because I'm using the pot pedal I need a Matchbox or somthing similiar to get the true full tone of the Sho Bud to come through.
If I was using a Hilton I would not need any impedence matching device.
Is this thinking correct?
What if I used a Hilton and a Matchbox7A? |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 20 Feb 2010 10:25 am
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| or just use a goodrich 10k pedal. |
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Todd Brown
From:
W. Columbia , South Carolina
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Posted 20 Feb 2010 10:35 am
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| In my short love affair with PSG, so far I've not had much luck with Goodrich products. I'd like to stay away from them if at all possible! |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 20 Feb 2010 10:47 am
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| wow......never a problem with mine in 20 yrs. |
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Todd Brown
From:
W. Columbia , South Carolina
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Posted 20 Feb 2010 11:02 am
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I bought a brand new L120 about a year ago. the pot was garbage in a matter of weeks and had to go back to an old L120 that I got off ebay with an AB pot in it.
I finally got around to sending the new one off to Goodrich for a replacement pot and the new pot they put in was unbearably scratchy in just a couple days.
Just so you know it was a PEC pot. I've since switched it out with the Dunlop. So far so good.
As far as their other products ,I have no first hand experience but what I know makes me weary about 'em. |
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Lynn Oliver
From:
Redmond, Washington USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 20 Feb 2010 11:42 am
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What are you hearing with the DD3->L120 hookup? The DD3 has a buffer of sorts, but with 10K output impedance it's going to look pretty much like a pickup to the L120. If you don't like that sound, then a buffer or a buffered pedal may be in order.
Before you spend any money it might be worth the time to try putting the DD3 after the L120, or perhaps in the FX loop of the 112.
I have an H10K with a TB Dunlop pot, and I think it sounds great. It hasn't gotten enough use to test the life of the pot, though.
If you are trying to rationalize the purchase of a Hilton, you have my support.  |
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Doug Earnest
From:
Branson, MO USA
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Posted 20 Feb 2010 6:51 pm
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I have found that using a matchbox such as the 7A cleans up the sound considerably when using a pot pedal.
It is my understanding that a matchbox is not needed when using a Hilton pedal due to the built in circuitry of the pedal.
Last week I did several back to back tests of a pot pedal with and without a matchbox vs. the Hilton pedal. Even though the pot pedal and matchbox is very good I felt that the Hilton was superior. It was if you had taken a heavy wool blanket off of the grill of the amp when the Hilton was plugged in. I especially liked the even response of the pedal. I'm not crazy about plugging a volume pedal in to the wall, though.
As far as price a Hilton is probably comparable to a new pot pedal and matchbox. Either setup will serve you well. I have had very good luck with several Goodrich products over the years, including several pot type pedal, matchboxes, and MatchBro.
_________________
Doug Earnest
Manufacturer of Stage One & Encore pedal steel guitars
http://www.stageonesteelguitars.com
"Teach Your Children Well" |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 20 Feb 2010 7:21 pm
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If you keep the DD3 where it is - between steel an VP, then a matchbox or active pedal won't make a real difference. The DD3 has 1M input impedance and 10K out, and therefore acts as a matchbox or buffered VP. I use a BOSS LMB-3 for impedance matching, in addition to its real effect.
If you want to put the DD3 after the VP, then a matchbox or buffered VP will make an audible difference. What unit/solution to use depends on how you like the resulting sound through each. |
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Lynn Oliver
From:
Redmond, Washington USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 20 Feb 2010 7:48 pm
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| The DD-3 makes a lousy buffer because the output is not low impedance, at 10K (or more) it is more like medium impedance. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 20 Feb 2010 8:13 pm
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| Lynn Oliver wrote: |
| The DD-3 makes a lousy buffer because the output is not low impedance, at 10K (or more) it is more like medium impedance. |
Agree, but for going through a passive VP and into an NV112, 10K is low.
The sound and sound-change (tone) heard when the steel has a pot-VP as first stage, is the load of the pot itself on the PU, and the varying load on the PU as it "sees" more or less of the input impedance of the amplifier or whatever comes first after the pot-VP in addition to the pot. A DD3 keeps the load on the PU high and constant, and it wouldn't affect anything but the level (lowering it slightly) even if the DD3 had 100K output impedance. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 21 Feb 2010 3:00 am
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| Get a Hilton and it solves all the problems. The Impedence (if that will really make your sound better)and eliminate the passive pot's tendancy to color the sound (change tone). |
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Lynn Oliver
From:
Redmond, Washington USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 21 Feb 2010 6:26 am
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Georg, I think we are probably agreeing except perhaps for some basic assumptions. Plus I haven't done a very good job of explaining what I meant, so let me break it down:
1. Whatever problem the OP is hearing now must be due to the interaction of the DD-3 and the L120. I don't have a DD-3, but do know that people tend to put it last in the chain, and that it doesn't have a great reputation for use as a buffer. For that reason it could be that putting a higher-quality buffer, or an active pedal, after the DD-3 will improve the sound.
2. Finding the best order for pedals is sometimes more of an art than a science, so it is best to try different orders and see what you like and what you don't.
3. Impedance matching is used in transmission lines for efficient power transfer, and in cabling to prevent reflections, but to my mind doesn't apply to this situation. In this case you generally you want to have high impedance inputs and low impedance outputs, not matching impedances.
4. If the OP was really just looking for theoretical correctness, rather than trying to solve a specific problem, then it is likely that the DD-3 will work fine in front of the L120. It certainly would eliminate the loading effect of a pot pedal on the pickup(s).
Either way, the OP hasn't mentioned whether he likes or dislikes the interaction of a pot pedal with the guitar. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 21 Feb 2010 6:54 am
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Lynn, the two of us probably agree, both on the technical and the more "artsy" side of impedance matching and sound-shaping here.
It comes down to what kind of sound-problem the Original Poster really think/feel he has and wants to solve, as "further impedance matching" by definition clearly isn't "it" with the set-up he has. A set-up can be changed though, and that'll throw everything around - especially sound-wise.
So if the Original Poster try to describe what he has - equipment and settings and how he uses it, and what he hears and what he wants to hear, in more details, he is much more likely to get the best suggestions for how to get there. |
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john widgren
From:
Wilton CT
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Posted 21 Feb 2010 3:47 pm volume pedal
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Simple solution: Telonics FP-100 volume pedal. My absolute favorite. Built in impedance matching (variable), and no tonal variation from low to hi volume. You can set the amount of loading (if you like.)
Contact me for special price.
_________________
Steel Guitar Services:
Live performance and recording. Instruments, repairs and lessons. Fresh bait/discount sushi.
(203) 858-8498
widcj@hotmail.com |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 21 Feb 2010 6:56 pm
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| John, is the impedance matching somehow variable on-the-fly on the Telonics pedal, so the player can change it while playing? If so I might consider one for myself since I know it's a great VP, but otherwise I don't think the Telonics would be of much use to me in my set-up. |
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john widgren
From:
Wilton CT
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Posted 21 Feb 2010 7:22 pm Vp
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The Telonics is easily adjustable with a small screwdriver (provided). Takes about 2-3 seconds. Not on the fly while playing. I don't understand why you would want to, but no matter...the answer is that it does not.
_________________
Steel Guitar Services:
Live performance and recording. Instruments, repairs and lessons. Fresh bait/discount sushi.
(203) 858-8498
widcj@hotmail.com |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 21 Feb 2010 8:46 pm
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OK John, the Telonics VP is probably an excellent choice for the Original Poster then, providing he puts the DD3 after it.
For me; I occasionally like to "mismatch" PU load, both towards extremely high Z and extremely low Z while playing. "Sliding" various linear or non-linear loads up and down creates some interesting sounds/effects with some PUs. |
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Lynn Oliver
From:
Redmond, Washington USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 21 Feb 2010 8:48 pm
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| Not entirely OT, here is an article on pedal placement that offers some reasonable advice. |
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john widgren
From:
Wilton CT
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Posted 22 Feb 2010 7:18 am Vp
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Dear George,
AHA! Yes I see. Thanks for explaining. The stock Telonics would not do what you require. Best. JW
_________________
Steel Guitar Services:
Live performance and recording. Instruments, repairs and lessons. Fresh bait/discount sushi.
(203) 858-8498
widcj@hotmail.com |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 22 Feb 2010 7:53 am
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I will not play without a Goodrich MatchBox, even with a Hilton pedal.
If for no other reason than having a volume and tone control right at my fingertips. |
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