Hierarchy of PSG Makers

[Brint Hannay]

Allen Maybe He Wants to Buy one and Wants to Know What People Who play Steel Really Think, Before He gets a Dud

My $.02 worth? I don't think there's a "dud" brand out there--period! (contemporary or "vintage") There are most likely individual "dud" guitars; I've been lucky enough to not wind up with one. Try before you buy--if you buy from a distance and can't do that, make sure you have right of return if you don't like it.

[Chris Lucker]

These are better than those, and these are even better. Those over there are mechanical marvels but sound dull. Those way over there don't have great fit and finish but sound great. These are heavy and those are light.
But they are all pretty darned good. Get what you want to look at for a long while. Or, of you think you are going to change steels soon, get a black mica or blonde lacquer one.

[Dan Blaisdell]

I play a 2006 GFI Ultra single 10 with a pad. Scale of 1 - 10? Maybe a 6. Added a TC Electronics Digital Delay, an NV112, and a Hilton VP and it rose to a solid 7. Hierarchy? Middle at best. This based on sitting and strumming an Emmons Le Grande III for about 30 seconds. Yep, my opinion too is subjective as heck. I love the sound of a Rittenberry!

[Alan Brookes]

...My problem is that they ALL appeal to me, and if I had the bucks, I'd get one of each.

I was working on that one, but I ran out of space.

[Ned McIntosh]

There is no heirarchy of steel guitar builders. Nobody can afford to build a steel that isn't very competitive with all the others.

It all comes down to choices...Push-pull versus All-pull. Number of positions for pull-rods on bellcranks. Double or Triple Raise-Lower. Mica or lacquer finish. Keyed or keyless. Model number or year-of-build. Feel of mechanism and pedal-travel. Ease of adjustment of copedent. Cabinet-drop, real and perceived. Ability to stay in tune for long periods in spite of variations in temperature and humidity. Choice of pickups and neck-material. Brand A or Brand B.

We - players and listeners - are the most unquantifiable variable in the whole mix. No two of us have identical hearing, so what we hear in any given steel is partly due to how and by whom it is played, and partly due to how we ourselves hear what is played.

We are also highly subjective...we have prejudices, acknowledged and subconscious. Many feel the tone of the push-pull classic mechanism produces superior tone, others insist tone is in the hands of the player. The reality is both points-of-view have equal validity and merit. Your perception of any superiority of one steel over another is entirely due to you, as mine is to me.

When we buy steels we buy what we like the look of, the feel of and the sound of. If we are smart, we also buy what we can afford. Looks only count for so much because when we're playing we see nothing but the top of the steel. The audience sees the front, but they have relatively little appreciation of what they are looking at. Only players and builders see beauty in the steel-guitar.

The undercarriage is of almost no interest to the audience because they don't even care how the instrument makes "that sound", they just want that sound. Only players and builders can truly appreciate the artistry of the undercarriage, just as they are the only ones for whom the precision engineering underneath makes the most delicious contrast to the cabinet-making and luthiery revealed when the steel is placed in its playing-position.

Is a Zum more aesthetic than an Emmons, or a Franklin, a Williams, a Marlen, a Sho-Bud or a Carter, or a Fessenden, or a Kline, a Fulawka or a Weenick? There must be well over 45 brands, past and present, from which to choose. Is any one better than all the rest? Is the glass half-empty, and if so, why is it still half-full?

Pedal-steel guitars are just machines. They can be well-adjusted and perform flawlessly, and they can be mal-adjusted and cause grief. They are inert and voiceless until a human being gives them voice. Several comments have been made to the effect that "I only play what I like", and the statement "I only like what I play" could apply just as well.

If you must have a hierarchy, then arrange the pedal-steels alphabetically by manufacturer's name. It's pretty meaningless, but it is at least systematic.

[Bill Fisher]

Alphabetically.......Let's see: A = ANAPEG.

I'll stop right there.

Bill

[David Mason]

Bottom tier: Washburn, Dean, ESP.
Middle tier: Fender, Gibson.
Top tier: Tom Anderson, Suhr, PRS.

I guess you're not aware of what's known as "ghost-built" guitars? Every one of those "bottom tier" companies, and Ibanez & Schecter, have a custom shop where they design and build the actual guitars that their endorsing artists play. It's actually a few luthiers hand-building these, and they guard this info pretty carefully. They show up on the market sometimes. They also have some high-end guitars available to the public. Old Japanese-built Ibanezes & the newer American-built "custom"-shop ones are some of the nicest guitars I've ever seen. I've played one of Andy Timmons' personal early signature guitars - whoa.

These builders tend to break away and build their own, eventually - when Mike Lipe say's he's built guitars for Vai & Satriani, wonder where he used to work? Tom Anderson himself used to ghost-build the signature Kramers in the 1980's, and the "Made in USA" were made by Godin - in Canada.

There's a lot of controversy over Fender & (particularily) Gibson's later high-end solidbody guitars - taking a Les Paul off the standard production line and giving it a great set-up and some "relicing" doesn't really make it worth $6,000 in my opinion, especially with a four-piece body made out of heavy "mahogany" that's chambered to imitate resonant wood.

Quite a few "top-tier" guys buys bodies and wood from another company already cut. I don't see anything wrong there - Brad Paisley's builder Bill Crook even advertises using USA Custom necks, and I prefer these & Warmoth wood over Fender's - but the only thing that matters is sound and ease of use. Great guitars outnumber great guitarists by a factor of millions.

http://www.lipeguitars.com/home.shtml

[steve takacs]

Brett Lanier said:
"I would bet that a lot of guitars that sit in the closet weren't playing to their potential when they were put there."

I can only go on my experience but I've had these 26 guitars over the course of 31 years and 22 of them were second-hand:

Mark-Rite (kit) 1
Sho-Bud 1
Sierra 4
Kline 4
Williams 5
Zumsteel 3
ZB 2
Mullen 1
Excel 4
SGI 1

Except for the first, the kit, NONE had problems. Maybe I was lucky. The "driver" may not have not been playing up to his potential but these second hand guitars were. Why did I get rid of the bulk of these? Chalk it up to "GAS" (Guitar Acquisition Syndrome) which may be a major reason why guys who have guitars in the closet turn them loose. stevet

[Herb Steiner]

Bottom Tier: either yours, or the one that other guy is playing.

Middle Tier: either the one that other guy is playing, or yours.

Top Tier: the one I'm playing, or not.

That's about as specific as I choose to get, at the moment.

[chris ivey]

it's best not to get too serious on the forum. screwing around with everyone's funny little ways is much more productive. ...unless you have an important question....that's ok too.

there are sooo many steels in the top tier now that it's hard to keep track.

more important is that you produce some cool music from some kind of steel.

[Brick Spieth]

I think the best answer to the question is to search the archives for a thread where someone kept track of who played what at the St Louis show . I've got to believe that if you sampled 30 or so top pros, and given that there isn't the endorsement contracts in PSG like the electric six string market, you would have a pretty good idea of how well regarded a particular brand was. I believe Emmons and Mullard were at the top by far and a few other brands were prominent.

[b0b]

I believe Emmons and Mullard were at the top by far and a few other brands were prominent.

Never heard of Mullard.

Seems to me that there are always more Zumsteels than any other brand on the stage at St. Louis. But even at that, nobody has anywhere near 50% coverage. There are a lot of great steels being made today with a lot of different logos.

[Brick Spieth]

Ever heard of a senior moment?

[Mike Perlowin]

COLOR

Everybody knows that purple and green steels sound better than black or natural finish ones. The brand name doesn't matter. If you want a great sounding steel, get a purple or green one.

[Bill Hatcher]

Middle tier: Fender, Gibson.

You put the two most influential and most played guitars in the middle tier!?!?!?

You are tier-able.

[Glyndon Woosley]

I think I understand the reluctance to speak freely on this subject, and most guitars built today are hopefully "quality built", but if all are alike then why are they not all the same price and why do different players choose different brands? While the "shape" may be similiar,..by looking, playing and reading information from the builders, it's evident that there are differences. That's why we look at several before buying one.

[Roger Rettig]

When I first became aware of what a pedal-steel was, I quickly decided that I wanted either a Sho-Bud or an Emmons - but what did I know??? I hadn't even tried to play at that point, yet their visual impact had already cast a spell over me.

My first guitars were ZBs, but - as nice-looking as they were - that was because of their availablity in the UK.

Then I had a Pro 111, because I still had a bee-in-my-bonnet about owning a Sho-Bud. It turned out to be nothing but trouble due to its pot-metal parts.

Then I had an Emmons. That was in 1998 by which time I knew a little about what I thought I wanted from a guitar, but I was still strongly influenced by those earliest impressions - that an Emmons was the State-of-the Art guitar, played by the Big E himself among so many other iconic players.

I know this shouldn't have been a factor, but I'm afraid it was and, with a great many customers, it still is.

The bottom line for me now is that Emmons, Zum and Franklin (in no particular order) will always find a ready market - that speaks volumes about how those 'top three' steel guitars are perceived in our claustrophobic little world. Their image and 'star associations' still go a long way in reinforcing their status.

[James Mayer]

Middle tier: Fender, Gibson.

You put the two most influential and most played guitars in the middle tier!?!?!?

You are tier-able.

Most influential because they were in the right place at the right time when there was far less competition. I'm not knocking Leo's innovation, but Gibson and Fender have a range that spans from crap to great(that is, for manufactured guitars). There are so many great modern builders that put out superior guitars that I think nostalgia alone allows those companies to charge the prices that they do. That and you can get custom made instruments that far surpass the quality of the most popular brands for around the same price as the high-end manufactured model. Play ten Les Pauls and keep it objective. You'll find that 6 of them are mediocre, at best.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if the modern plethora of guitars were sold in the 50's and 60's.

[Bill Hatcher]

Middle tier: Fender, Gibson.

You put the two most influential and most played guitars in the middle tier!?!?!?

You are tier-able.

Most influential because they were in the right place at the right time when there was far less competition. I'm not knocking Leo's innovation, but Gibson and Fender have a range that spans from crap to great(that is, for manufactured guitars). There are so many great modern builders that put out superior guitars that I think nostalgia alone allows those companies to charge the prices that they do. That and you can get custom made instruments that far surpass the quality of the most popular brands for around the same price as the high-end manufactured model. Play ten Les Pauls and keep it objective. You'll find that 6 of them are mediocre, at best.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if the modern plethora of guitars were sold in the 50's and 60's.

Please stick to what I said. They are the most influential and the most played guitars. Never mind nostalgia, competition, quality or your time travel thing.

You cannot dispute that more Fenders and Gibsons ARE and HAVE BEEN played by more artists than any of your "great modern builders" things. To place these two companies as middle tier is ludicrous.

[b0b]

Uh, this is the Steel Guitar Forum, guys.

[Dave Mudgett]

Any 'generic' hierarchy is strictly in your head, a figment of your fertile imagination. Any hierarchy depends on the criterion by which you evaluate it, there are many, many possibilities.

Questions such as "What is your favorite guitar?", "What is the prettiest guitar?", "What is the most popular guitar?", "What is the most influential guitar design?" and even "What is the best sounding guitar?" or "What is the best playing guitar" make sense at a certain level as pure opinion polls. But the idea of a 'generic' hierarchy is way too vague to have any meaning, IMO.

I know this is the pedal steel section, but I completely agree with Bill Hatcher. In the original post, an absurd guitar analogy, which demonstrates just how vague this whole concept is, was made. PRS over Gibson, Anderson over Fender? Are you joking? Again, IMO.

[Terry Winter]

Mike Perlowin wrote


Everybody knows that purple and green steels sound better than black or natural finish ones. The brand name doesn't matter. If you want a great sounding steel, get a purple or green one.

I agree with Mike however Polls prove that red and natural top the list....
Terry Winter

[Wayne Franco]

Zam,BSA,Emmunds and Chrters.

[Billy Carr]

It's who is sitting behind the steel guitar, not necessary the brand name on the front. One brand I didn't see listed here or overlooked it, it is the RAINS guitars. Yes I play one but I've also had most other brands except for a Zumsteel. If Emmons, Hughey, Rugg, Sweeney, Jernigan and several others play or played one, then that speaks highly of the Zum. It's like buying an automobile, some appeal and some don't.

[Paul Redmond]

The best guitar ever made is the one that works best for y'all and does what you want it to do...period!!! Why do we get involved in this brand-name thing all the time anyhow?
PRR