Emmons P/P electronics problem

Justin Douglas · Post by **Justin Douglas** » 20 Jan 2010 8:53 am

Howdy,

I've got a 70s Emmons student model push pull 3+1. Looks just like THIS ONE.

Original pickup, electronics (1 vol 1 tone), etc. Sounds just fantastic, but all of a sudden my signal is cutting out. Not completely, just when I play it kind of jumps around and almost crackles a bit.

It's quite strange - I'll play a chord and it'll sound fine, then the volume will cut in and out. Sounds like a bad cable to me, but I changed cables, amps, everything. It's definitely the steel.

I noticed it has a really large capacitor across the electronics. Pots work fine and aren't scratchy.

Thoughts?

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 20 Jan 2010 9:59 am

Once you consider this musical wonder, you might look differently at your countertop!

JJ

Mike Sweeney · Post by **Mike Sweeney** » 20 Jan 2010 10:03 am

Did you check your volume pedal?

Steve English · Post by **Steve English** » 20 Jan 2010 10:27 am

If it's definitely the guitar:

Check the jack. Make sure the tip is making good contact (you can bend the tip contact in a little to increase the pressure on the plug).

Check to see that your hot lead is soldered to the volume and tone controls well. Gently pull on the wire under the guitar to see if that's the problem.

You can take a jumper with alligator clips and bypass the controls entirely, just to remove them from being suspects.

If it's in the guitar, and not one of the above, it may be the pickup itself. Clip an ohm meter to the pickup leads and wiggle the pickup....

Nathan Golub · Post by **Nathan Golub** » 20 Jan 2010 10:38 am

I had an Emmons pickup that did just what you are describing because it was damaged. The wrapping on the sides of the pickup was coming loose. Some of the copper wire was visible at the bottom.

Justin Douglas · Post by **Justin Douglas** » 20 Jan 2010 10:41 am

Once you consider this musical wonder, you might look differently at your countertop!

Absolutely!

It's 100% the guitar, that much I can tell you. I'll check the pup with an OHM meter tomorrow. I gently wiggled the connections around while plugged in and didn't hear any crackle or contact noise. The jack is tight and making good connection as far as I can tell, but I'll double check.

My guess is either the pickup or the volume/tone assembly. Hoping it's not the pickup.

Thanks fellas!

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 20 Jan 2010 11:47 am

Before disturbing the pickup, wash the vol./tone pots out with tuner cleaner.

Justin Douglas · Post by **Justin Douglas** » 20 Jan 2010 11:53 am

what's tuner cleaner? contact cleaner? compressed air?

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 20 Jan 2010 7:25 pm

You can get it at Radio Shack. It's called Control/Contact cleaner & Lubricant. Comes in a 4.5 oz. aerosol can. You can find openings in the pots on Emmons where the connector tabs enter the pot or sometimes at another place near the bottom. Using the small tube (straw) that comes with the aerosol can, spray some of the cleaner thru the opening and rotate the knob. This will clean dirt and oxidization of the track on the inside of the pot.
The cleaning solution will evaporate.

Others may suggest products which they think are better, however this one can be found easily, and it works.

Tommy Shown · Post by **Tommy Shown** » 21 Jan 2010 5:43 am

You might try taking an alcohol wipe to the connnectors on your plugs also. That might help.
Tommy Shown

Justin Douglas · Post by **Justin Douglas** » 21 Jan 2010 8:34 am

Anyone know the types/values of the pots on a 70s Emmons like this, and what the big capacitor is (I haven't looked yet)?

I do a lot of modding fx pedals and wiring guitars - it'd be a cinch to just replace all that stuff assuming the pickup is ok.

Justin Douglas · Post by **Justin Douglas** » 22 Jan 2010 7:08 am

OK, so it is the pickup.

I took everything apart, check all soldering and wrapped electrical connections with e. tape as it's a pretty tight fit in there and things could easily touch.

Turns out if I rest or strike my palm on the bass side of the pickup, it does the cutting in/out thing. I tightened the pickup onto the pickguard, but it will still do it if I apply pressure to the bass side of the pup.

I can avoid it more or less for a while so long as I think not to touch it, but looks like I'll need a new pickup before too long.

Oh well, thanks for the help guys!

Chris Lucker · Post by **Chris Lucker** » 22 Jan 2010 10:39 am

Is one of the pull rods sometimes touching the electronics causing a short?

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 22 Jan 2010 1:39 pm

Chris' point is valid. Although pickups do occasionally go bad,it is rare. It is more likely you are losing connection or grounding out somewhere.
Since you say it happens when you touch the bass side of the pickup, I would suspect under the pickup
(a break going into the pickup or grounding out). As Chris suggests, you may be putting just enough pressure on it to have a hot and a ground come together somewhere. If I had it, I could tell you if it was the pickup in just a few minutes.

One of you Austin guys who works on steels, give him an assist.

David Collins · Post by **David Collins** » 24 Jan 2010 10:04 am

Chris and Clyde speaketh the truth. Happened on my Push Pull. A relatively easy fix. Be double sure before changing out a pickup that is probably better than a new one.

Mine ended up being a selector switch terminal hitting a pull rod at some very specific moves. A minor adjustment stopped the problem.

David Slack · Post by **David Slack** » 24 Jan 2010 8:36 pm

I have a similar Emmons student model. The tone pot is scratchy and cuts out. Contact cleaner is not helping. If I was to replace the pot, what value would I go with? 500K? 250K?

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 24 Jan 2010 8:56 pm

I would think it has a bypass switch for the tone control so if it was turned off the pot could not be an issue. If if were a double body I would lean toward a pull rod touching a wire when activated, could be only a single strand of wire hardly visible. I believe on this single body the control panel is to the rear enough to be clear of the pull rods but I would still move wires around a little and see if it clears up. You might check to make sure nothing is moving into the wires on the input jack when you are activating pedals and levers.
Jerry

Larry Chung · Post by **Larry Chung** » 25 Jan 2010 3:21 pm

My Emmons pickup was doing the same thing, I checked the coil with a multi-tester, and it showed an open coil, which is a break in the windings. It's still possible for a strong signal to get through an open coil, as I can personally attest to.

Just got my pickup back from Jason Lollar, and, after a lovely rewind, my guitar is back to singing and growling. I highly recommend his services, very satisfied yet again.

Sorry, the experience with my pickup was meant for Justin's issue(s) only, not for David S. or others.

David S. - if I recall, the student model Emmons guitars didn't have a bypass control for the volume pot or tone circuit, so I'm glad to hear that you successfully isolated the problem in one or other of the pots. Good luck!

LC

David Slack · Post by **David Slack** » 25 Jan 2010 9:43 pm

I really don't think the p/u is the problem here. Using a multi-meter I am getting healthy reading from the p/u. And I checked and no wires are touching any pull rods etc. When I try to get a reading from the pot I am getting nothing which makes me think thats the problem. If I was going to try to replace with a new pot, which value would I replace it with?

Justin Douglas · Post by **Justin Douglas** » 26 Jan 2010 11:10 am

So my pickup is just cutting out. Left alone it sounds really thin.

When I press on the bass side of the pickup cover, it crackles and cuts in for a second, but cuts back out as soon as I stop applying pressure to the cover.

Here's a link to a small MP3 of the issue I just recorded:

http://shinestudiosaustin.com/justindou ... pickup.mp3

When I first strike the strings, it's thin, then I fiddle with the pickup and you can hear it start to cut in and out. When it cuts in, it's nice and full. At about 15 seconds I get it to stay down for a bit and you can hear how it's supposed to sound.

This is with very, very little pressure to the pickup - no levers or pedals depressed, and there's no wiring shorts or anything touching anything else.

New pickup time?

edit: I looked and can see loose copper windings out the top of the pickup. I think this is it. Anyone got a replacement REAL cheap they can get me by Friday?!

Larry Chung · Post by **Larry Chung** » 26 Jan 2010 1:54 pm

Hi Justin:

Yep, that's just what mine sounded like... and when I hooked it up to a multi-meter, it showed an open coil.

Did you try using a mulit-meter on the pickup to see if you have an open coil? That's a sure fire way to know definitively that that's the problem, as several here have suggested.

Good luck. Like I said, there are several folks around who could rewind that pickup for you, you have my fave above.
LC

David Slack · Post by **David Slack** » 30 Jan 2010 8:48 am

In case anyone was interested, it was an original 500K pot. Replaced it with a new 500K pot and everything is working perfect now!

Justin Griffith · Post by **Justin Griffith** » 31 Jan 2010 12:12 pm

Justin,
I am about 30 minutes from Austin. If you I can do anything to help you troubleshoot this let me know.
Best,
Justin

The Steel Guitar Forum

Emmons P/P electronics problem

Emmons P/P electronics problem

Pot Value?

sound file included of the problem

Pot Value