Improvising

Austin Tripp · From: Westminster SC

Since I started playing the steel, I have my blocking technique down, I love my tone, I have good bar control, and I can survive a 10 to 2. But recently, I've started trying to improvise on some of the "jazzy" songs that we play and this past Friday night, I decided to record myself with a tape recorder and my improvising sucks hehe. I can play western swing and I can play fast country song, but when it comes to the slow 2/4 jazzy tunes, I just can't seem to get a handle on it. I listened to my recording and I know the song I was playing but if anyone else heard the songs, they would simpliy say, so what are you trying to play? Its not just jazz songs, sometimes they will pop a country song I haven't heard before and it will have a long, strung out steel break and I just kinda get lost trying to figure out what I'm going to do next. Any tips?
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Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Make yourself a rhythm track of a few of those songs. Just a guitar strum should work fine. Doesn't have to be a work of art, just a recognizable chord progression. Be sure you can pad chords for the entire progression -- preferably in more than one position or voicing.

Sit down at your guitar and think about the first chord and find the triad (1 3 5) and think about the 'color tones' (like a Ma7 or Ma6) and what the melody does. LEARN THE MELODY IN SINGLE NOTES as well.

Now -- the hard part -- take 4 or 8 bars and HUM A COUNTER-MELODY. You may even want to record a few possibilities. Make it sound DIFFERENT but with the same FLAVOR as the melody. Start with single notes. Just hum it first before you even try it on your guitar.

Continue through the verse or chorus or whatever you're soloing over and come up with a complete counter-melody. Then you can harmonize that melody as you wish -- anything from just the original note to 2-part, or even chord solo style.

There are many ways to approach this but one common objective is to be MELODIC -- not just hot licks strung together.

What are some examples of tunes you're having problems with?
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Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

It might be time to study music and apply what you learn to your playing. I would contact Steve Cunningham in Ga. and ask him what he would do.

http://www.stevecunningham.net/
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Bob

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

www.aracnet.com/~lcbehm

Joe Gretz · From: Washington, DC, USA

Austin,

Both Larry and Bob have given you excellent advise!

You can't go wrong when you start with the melody! Start with simple ideas, and then try to develop them. Proceed s l o w l y too. Don't expect things to happen over night...you are trying to build vocabulary...and the idea is to be extemporaneous.

It wouldn't hurt to study melodic development ideas like "theme and variation", and some basic counterpoint too. MHO.

Hope this helps! Smile

Good luck,

Joe
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Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

The above advice is terrific. Remember that the melody note is usually the top note of the chord (but not always) and that you can choose one of the other notes in the triad to use as a nice harmony.

Barry Hyman · From: upstate New York, USA

Wow. I guess I've been improvising so long that I don't know how I do it or how I learned it, but what Larry Bell is suggesting sounds more like composition than improvisation to me, and Bob's idea of studying music to learn improvisation also strikes me as slightly oblique. Good and worthwhile suggestions, definitely, but somehow they don't strike me as direct or short-term answers to your question.

I would make a rhythm track, as Larry suggests, but then I would forget all about the melody and the counter-melody, and just improvise along with it repeatedly, trying to do something different each time. Definitely you are trying to invent a new melody and not just string together pre-rehearsed licks (!!!!!) but I believe this should come straight from your musical imagination to your fingers and should not be filtered through or translated by your verbal, academic left brain.

What they are giving you, it seems to me, is advice on how to compose a good psg part to a song, but improvisation is supposed to be spontaneous, not studied, not composed. It is supposed to just flow out of you. How do you learn that? Practice improvising. Studying the chord change and the melody and the counter-melody, and studying music theory and chord structures are all wonderful and acutely worthwhile things to do, but that kind of left brain approach can actually hinder improvisation for some people. You are trying to find your own musical imagination and trust its value, and then you are trying to learn how to get those sounds to come out of your instrument in real time.

I guess I agree with Larry that you should make a rhythm tape, and then try singing your own melody along with it. The trick is to find what your musical imagination wants to hear. That can not be studied -- it is inside you, not in some book. Music education helps a lot, but at a certain point you have to leave all that behind and just gamble that the melody in your head is worth playing.

Just some thoughts. Fascinating subject. I don't mean to disagree with what the other guys have said -- just to expand on it a little. Imrovisation is slightly supernatural. There is no "mechanical" or "scientific" way to get there. To some extent you just have to sit there until the muse sings in your ear, and then quick play that on your instrument before the moment is gone. Good luck, and try to enjoy the process!!!
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Mike Neer · From: NJ

Transcribe a bunch of solos, preferably not steel guitar, and learn them. This is what players have been doing since the dawn of recorded music and it is the best way to give yourself a jumpstart. You not only need to have these ideas in your head, but you need to have them in your fingers--you can't just let your fingers do the thinking.

If you focus on even one small segment of an improvisation that you like, if you have open ears and are the type who likes to get inside stuff and mess around and change it, than you will have an unlimited supply of materials to learn from and your head will be full of ideas when it's time to play.
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Allan Munro · From: Pennsylvania, USA and Scotland

Rick Campbell · From: Sneedville, TN, USA

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Austin Tripp · From: Westminster SC

Thanks everyone for the help, it is GREATLY appreciated. I was also thinking that all this will probaly come to me better when I have a few more years under my belt. This whole time, I have been ignoring other players around me and have been trying to come up with my own stuff and sort of "stand out". But I guess you have to walk before you run hehe. I read the Winnie Winston improv section in the Pedal Steel book and he mentioned just playing chords and coming up with licks (which I really should start doing). Also, to me, it seems like when im in front of a crowd, my nerves makes me play better and I have more licks and progessions coming out than I do at home woodsheding. BUT the bad part is, 90% of the time, I will play a phrase and it sound something like Paul Franklin would do,,,, and then I forget it. I guess I really need to take my recorder on stage with me then just go home and try to figure out what the heck I did hehe. Thanks again everyone for the help. Looks like I got some homework to do this weekend!!

Austin Tripp
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"Hotrod"
Steel guitarist for Cody Jinks
Member CMA

Mike Neer · From: NJ

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I like the Jamey Aebersold stuff quite a bit. You can start really basic and work your way up or,in my case, stay really basic Wink

http://www.aebersold.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc

You may need to learn where the notes are on your steel to get started but that will only help your playing.
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Bob

Ryan Barwin · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

That's all good advice. I'm assuming you're doing this on C6th?

If you haven't done it already, work on learning your modes and scales really well, both so you can play them, and so you can hear them.

The Jamey Aebersold tracks are a great way to practice improvising jazz stuff.

Learning some jazz standards, and eventually bebop tunes will help a lot with getting that phrasing in your improvised lines.

Lifting solos is very helpful too.
Try the trumpet solo from this one...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPq47C3WwRQ
Then you can use some of the lines over a blues progression.

There's some free jazz play-along tracks on this page that might be useful..
http://www.jamtracks.ru/en/mpjam.html
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Pat Comeau · From: New Brunswick, Canada

All advices above have some good points but what you really need is more years of experience in playing steel, one of the best way to learn to improvise any songs is to learn from different style of music from the pro's like Buddy, Loyd, Paul, Tommy, ect..., learn the most songs and different licks, technics, solos ect...and after a few years you'll have some baggage under your belt and there won't be any songs you couldn't play, the worse thing about learning any instrument is to always try to imitate someone else all the time, i knew real good musicians that could play songs note for note like the original in their set list but when it came down to jam and backup singers on Sunday afternoon amature show with a song they never heard they just either sucked ,frose and couldn't follow or improvised , my point is you have to learn from the best to be the best and not from just one person or just one style of playing or music and you can't learn everything by yourself...you need to play in bands and jam whenever you can and go out see and hear other players...that is the best practice there is,you'll know when you'll find your tone and style, and don't forget the most important thing of all...is to have soul, feel and dynamics in your playing Smile

i have almost 40 years of playing guitar and 30 of those playing professional, i have played on dozens of albums from different artist and have played for big names in the business, and i have learned from guy's like Ray Flacke, Albert Lee, Ricky Scaggs, Vince Gill, Steve Wariner, Brent Mason ect... and i can say that i can jam and improvise in any song out there, some might not be perfect but i'll get by by trying to play simple licks and chords in songs that i'm not really sure of , practice makes perfect that's what they say Razz

Pat C

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Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I didn't mean to imply that what I suggested was the ONLY way. Dif'rent strokes for dif'rent folks.

Anyone who tells you to just play a few more years and it will all come to you is blowin' smoke. Practice and experience is important but I know cats who have been hacking at it for 50 years who can't play their way out of a wet paper bag.

You need a METHOD and you need to EVALUATE your progress periodically. Copping other players' solos is a tried and true method of learning what others have done, it is true. I was trying to encourage you to LET THE MUSIC INSIDE YOU OUT and give you a method to begin doing that. There are many ways that work well. Don't rule out finding a teacher. If it's C6 you're after, go hang out with Jernigan for a weekend. There's a limit to what you can get out of a piece of plastic (CD / DVD). A human being who can answer YOUR questions is very valuable.

Good luck -- it is a lifelong adventure.
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My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

I think that sadly there are many roads to guaranteed failure and a few only leading into the vicinity of possible success.

Many try to "learn" to play, to control a new instrument and to improvise all at once.
Others, think that improvisation is to imitated other people's improvisations, forgetting that improvisation is CREATION, not a copy.
Finally, there are those who try to analyze the creations of creators by the means of systems and theories and want to believe that if they master the "system", uncover the magic pattern, they will be able to replicate some sort of systematic improvisation.

I think, that IF you really want to learn to improvise you have to do it in stages from the bottom up.
Listen to rhythm tracks of music styles which "natural" to you. Try to hum or whistle various alternate melodies to it, harmonize, and then, all still without ANY instrument, try to "improvise" mentally, still just humming, whistling or even singing out aloud.
You do that, you will be amazed how you grow musically! How your creative powers grow and your improvisations become more intricate!
Once you feel you have recognized, acquired, developed and honed YOUR style of improvisation so far you are confident only should you try to discover how to lay "your language" out on the fret board.

... J-D.

Mike Neer · From: NJ

JD, respectfully, I disagree with you completely on your assertion that you can't learn to improvise by learning from others and from learning the language of music.

Knowledge is power, even in music. You can't write without knowing the alphabet, you can't speak articulately without learning the language--it's the same in music. I know I don't want to listen to the rambling improvisations of someone who can't make the changes.

Name one great improviser who ever learned in the way you suggest. If you want to tell me that are musicians who play their own style who don't know anything about music theory, yes, that is true, but they learned from copying the greats.
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John Steele (deceased) · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

I have to agree with Mike Neer: Transcribing passages you admire is one of the greatest learning methods. And, as Mike said, not just steel players.
It seems there is a bridge that must be crossed for players of more traditional, diatonic-based music if they wish to dip their toes in the jazz field. I know, I went through it.
To pick out a couple of specific examples: Most traditional musicians have a hard time wrapping their head around half diminished chords (minor7b5 chords) and they're everywhere in jazz. A good knowledge of more colorful chords and their associated scales is tremendously helpful, i.e. 7b9 and 7#9 chords.
The first time someone told me you could spend an entire semester studying II-V-I changes, I thought that was weird. They were right. It's a foundation of 20th century music.

A couple of years ago I was on a bus, and three students next to me were discussing their music classes. One of them said "I like jazz, 'cause you can just play whatever you want. No rules."
I laughed all the way home.

- John

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

John De Maille · From: On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.

I'm a firm believer in recording your playing sessions. Notice, I said sessions and not practise. I've heard you play Austin and you don't need to practise much of anything. You're pretty much a complete package. But, by listening to the masters and emulating what they play, you should be able to pick up on how to improvise. I feel that, improvising is an aquired talent, which, in some people's cases takes longer to learn than others. It's a compilation of every lick and phrase you know and learning how to apply them, tastefully. Scales are a great way to get from one spot to another, so is utilizing the notes within a chord. Speaking of chords- they can be used to improvise by the use of augmenting, suspending, diminishing, 6ths, 7ths and many more. Try every combination you can think of, then learn some more and store them in the back of your head for future use. But, make sure you record your playing sessions because it's really easy to forget that great lick you learned yesterday.

Mike Neer · From: NJ

Copying someone else's improvisation is what you do in the privacy of your practice room. From there you sift through and learn to create your own stuff. It's just the building blocks. Of course, when you are improvising on the bandstand or studio, you have to be your own voice--but it helps to have done your homework.

However, you've got Dizzy Gillespie wrong. Bebop is all about harmony (specifically upper chord extensions) and rhythm and what they did was play based on substituting harmony--their skills were so refined that they could play through the music with all of the humor and emotional content that they wanted. As hip as it sounds, it is actually an intellectual endeavor, as is most of Jazz from that point in time on.
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Jim Robbins · From: Ontario, Canada

You might want to check out this thread -- starts out pretty straight ahead but gets into some interesting twists and turns (like a good improv solo):

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=159020&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Brad Malone · From: Pennsylvania, USA

Did anybody say: Listen to Louis Armstrong. If you have the time, copy a bunch of them and pretty soon you will get them all inside of you and mix them up and it will come out being you. Someone once said: if it is not in you it cannot come out of you.

Rick Campbell · From: Sneedville, TN, USA

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