Paul Franklin's "Bar" thoughts..a question

[b0b]

Are there other uses for the F-lver w/ the pedals up? Thanx-dg

Diminished, including 2nd string lowered to D or 9th string.

[David Griffin]

b0b: I don't know why I didn't remember the diminished chord! I gotta quit posting so late at nite!

[Cal Sharp]

What I generally use the F lever for is to play a diminished with strings 5,6 and 8, and use 3,4,5 and 6 for a major or 7th chord, and a bar slant is necessary when I let off the first pedal to make it a 7th because I tune the 4th string F lever to be in tune with the first pedal down. But all this can vary.

I've been getting closer and closer to A 440 over the years, but I haven't tried it yet with the F lever.

[steinar]

Very useful topic that became even more relevant for me yesterday.
I was going to record steel on a couple of songs for a local band, and as it turned out, I was so out of tune and pitch
that the producer and I just had to give up after 2 hours of trying.
I strobe tuned with a Peterson, and when that did not do the trick, and I also tried eliminating vibrations between strings, - however, on the first fret, 4 and 6 just did not want to sound clean. Also,somehow, the lower notes sounded more in tune than the higher ones.
In addition, when I played, some notes sounded sharp, some sounded flat, although the majority sounded sharp, - according to the producer. He used ProTools in his studio, and in comparing my steel track with the prerecorded tracks, I could hear how I was slightly off.
I tried concentrating on holding the bar straight on the fret lines, but to no avail. I also tried to "go north," but with the same result.

I have recorded in the past, and I have never encountered this problem to such a degree as yesterday.
The band I was recording for, used piano, strings, guitar, drums, bass and vocals, - would the key instruments play a role?
I recorded for a band using only guitars, bass, and drums with vocals in October, and that studio also used ProTools, and then things went ok.
But yesterday - for the first time for me - I had to throw in the towel.
I have read with great interest about tunings and about bar control, but I`m in doubt as to how to correct my problem.
When I played, I did not hear the mistakes/pitch/tuning problems, - only after analyzing things afterwards listening and having the producer pointing out the problems, did I become aware of the sad state of the union.

At the tender age of 60, I have no aspirations of becoming more than an amateur weekend warrior(sometimes), but at least I`d like to learn how to play in pitch and in tune.
So, you guys recording, what do you recommend??

[Jim Palenscar]

By no means am I what I consider to be a pro however- when I play with a piano or midi stuff which I do quite often it helps a bunch to tune pretty much
"straight up". If I tune the guitar "beat free" pretty much to A 440 - when I then record with a piano I just sound "sour".

[steinar]

Thanks, Jim, for your reply.
I hope that you pardon my ignorance, but just what do you mean by tuning "straight up?"
You write that if you tune 440, it will sound "sour" together with a keyboard/midi file. So, what is tuning "straight up?"

Thanks again,

Steinar

[Jim Palenscar]

I generally tend to set the E note "beat free" to the A note which is 440 on the 6th string with both the A and the B pedals engaged- thereby tuning the "cabinet drop" into the tuning. Then tune the rest of the guitar open to that E note- again "beat free" so that it sounds good to itself. All that goes out the window if I play with a piano or use midi- which I do fairly commonly- the I re-tune the guitar to to the standard tuner values for the notes and maybe flatten the G#'s (the 3rds) just a titch.

[Eric West]

Well Jim. Not to open a can of worms..

Since it's a Fifth, you have about a 1hz beat from 440hz.

Making you a (somebody say it...)



.




Ok..



A beat off..




EJL

[Earnest Bovine]

... A note which is 440 on the 6th string

3rd string A = 440 Hz.
6th string A = 220 Hz.

Then tune the rest of the guitar open to that E note- again "beat free" so that it sounds good to itself.

Which intervals are beat-free?

[Don Brown, Sr.]

Steinar, How old were your strings before hitting the studio? That could make all the difference of what your picking up, regardless of how well you tuned.

That is, as long as the steel itself, is capable of playing in tune. Well lubed, returns working ok, etc.

Don

[Jim Palenscar]

I sit corrected

[b0b]

Boo-wah A = 55 Hz.

[steinar]

Thank you all for your inputs.
Jim, I´ll try your tuning, Don, my strings- admittedly _ are old, so I`ll try changing them.
But do you have any tricks for keeping the bar straight on the fretline at any given time?
Even a miniscule movement proved disastrous in terms of going flat or sharp.
And also, I seem to have problems in hearing that I`m actually off, pitch - or tuning wise.
The producer strongly recommended in-ear monitoring.
Have any of you ever tried that?

[Don Brown, Sr.]

Steinar,

Without knowing how long you've been playing, and to what level of proficiency you're at, it's really hard to say exactly what the problem may be.

Above all else, one who plays steel guitar has to play by ear alone. That's because although it has fret markers, it is, a fretless instrument. It's therefore, that if the hearing isn't up to par, then neither would our playing be, no matter how well we could play otherwise. We can't simply go by the fret markers. We have to go by what it is we're hearing. The markers will only get you in the ball park. The end result will always depend on the ears.

So I'll start with asking if you're using any bar vibrato, which could help you out a lot. A little goes a long way. As in anything else, overdone is not good either.

Sorry I can't be of more help, if you're relitively new to playing steel, I'd feel you possibly need more time in training your ears to hear what it is you're playing. The ear is such an important part of playing, and even moreso using a fretless instrument.

Don

[b0b]

I hear flat easier than I hear sharp. Don't know why.

[Bent Romnes]

Steinar,

Without knowing how long you've been playing, and to what level of proficiency you're at,

Don

Don, maybe this will suggest the proficiency level he's at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jztFNVM_C4w

[steinar]

Bent, Bob, Don, thanks! I appreciate what you write about the ear being more important than the fretmarker, Don.
Now, that YouTube video that you linked to, Bent, that steel track caused some arguments. Some of my fellow band members felt that it was out of tune and pitch, and that I should redo it. At that time, I felt that it was within acceptable perimeters, but hearing it again tonight - bearing in mind Saturday`s recording experience - I start to feel that they were right. I apologize for being so self centered here, but what is your take on the steel track in terms of being in tune and being in pitch? I`m just curious as to whether I should try ear training so as to better recognize whether I`m in tune/pitch, - obviously I`m not up to speed here.

[richard burton]

Steinar,
On your recent recording session, did you put the steel track down before the keyboard, because that's a definite no-no.

Make sure the steel is the last instrument to be recorded, so that you can hear all the other instruments in the mix as you do your part.

[Bent Romnes]

Steinar, I am seeing myself in you. Sometimes my ear is way out and everything sounds sour. Maybe your producer and/or you thought you heard a bad bunch of notes and hearing that, gives a snowball effect pretty fast. Nothing sounds good from then on.

Now you are taking that Bakersfield song and letting it intensify your concerns.
I have played that tune a million times and there is nothing out of tune there. If there is, it is purely in the ear of the (self-proclaimed?) purist.

I would suggest you try one more time. Let the old ZB get acclimatized to the studio, install new strings break them in and it'll sound like a million bucks.

[Don Brown, Sr.]

Steinar,

Overall, a real nice job. Was the bass player one, who felt it was you not in pitch?

Maybe more groups should sound as good.....Huh

Edited to add: Technically, while using slow pedals during crying passages they could always be thought of as being out of tune, since they're moving voicing's. That's where the timing of those passages is so important, to start them out in tune, and end up precisely in tune.

Again, a real nice job. But! If one wanted to get picky, there's always something that could be picked out on anyone's cuts. But I'd not worry about them.

Real Nice Job!

[steinar]

Richard, all the other tracks had been laid down beforehand, I was just going to add steel.
Bent, - thanks for being so positive, but I`ll take to heart what you suggested, - change strings. I`ve been less than diligent in doing just that, and perhaps that might help.
Don, no, the bass player didn`t say anything.
Two of the others, and I respect both of them for their musicianship.
Thanks to you all for taking the time out to review this.
I`m not usually this self centered, but since this is a problem I have been more or less blissfully unaware of, I`m concerned about apparantly not being able to detect my shortcomings when playing.

[b0b]

Steinar, I thought your pitch was acceptable on that YouTube video. I'm rarely any more in tune than you were. A little reverb would have helped quite a bit to silence the critics, in my opinion.

I practice dry, but I always add reverb when performing for my own piece of mind. It fattens the pitch center of all the notes.

[steinar]

Bob, - thanks for your reply. And what you write about reverb fattening the pitch center, is very, very interesting!
In other words, the effect of miniscule movements or imprecise placement of the bar might be offset by adding reverb? So, instead of wavering between being sharp and flat, wider perimeters of the pitch center might stabilize the pitch?

[John Billings]

A very, very interesting question! One I've never thought about. When I play 6-string, I concentrate like crazy. But when I play steel, I kinda zone out. I've never had a complaint about sounding out of tune. I guess I must have a good ear, to brain, to body connection. I'd had three lessons when I got my first gig. Could only play stoopidly simple stuff, but the band leader says they hired me because I played in tune. I consider myself to be very lucky to have good "relative" pitch.

"It's like tying your shoes."
I remember my Mom teaching me to tie my own shoes. It was mostly demonstration, with some verbal instructions. It only took me a day or so to learn. I think I was 16 or 17 at the time!

[b0b]

Right. On slow songs we create vibrato with the bar. The reverberation of the vibrato notes above and below the idealized target blend with the real time pitch to effectively "widen" the pitch of the note. The imagination of the listener picks the "correct" pitch from the many waveforms that are present.