Runing in Stereo

Larry Behm · Post by **Larry Behm** » 29 May 2009 12:15 am

Randy Beavers told me you can play more intune when you hear the sound from 2 different places, in this case one on each side of you.

I NEVER liked the sound of two speakers, but now I would be hard pressed to play with just one. I point one into the room and one up at me, and then balance that volume for my ears. I know exactly what the "room" speaker sounds like and being on the floor will be louder than the tilted cab.

JayDee told me about the Tonealigner pickups for 3 years, I did not listen, then I made the switch. Lesson - when JayDee speaks - ACT. Randy told me about the 2 speakers, I did not wait this time, and I am glad I made the move.

Larry Behm

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 29 May 2009 8:01 am

It's the only way to fly!
Stereo=First Class.
I has nothing to do with the audience.

Steve Gall · Post by **Steve Gall** » 3 Jun 2009 8:49 am

I have been playing in stereo for close to 20 years. I am fortunate enough to be able to use in ear monitors for most of my gigs. Heaven on Earth! Thanks to Hartley that the 112's are a lot lighter than the ol Vegas 400's. Be careful not to play too wet. Note if you are mic'd and the PA is mono, only mic one side as the cancelling nature of the chorus effect is exascerbated when the two channels are mono-ed together.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 5 Jun 2009 12:37 am

One of the great advantages of the newest processors is the ability to dial in small amounts and levels of different effects. It used to be that a chorus pedal was all-or-nothing - "Oooh I'm Andy Summers." With a decent Boss or POD or Digitech unit outputting stereo, you can add the chorus somewhere between "20" and "30" on a scale of 1 - 100, and it will widen and stereo-ize the sound without being drastically overt. Likewise, a short delayed signal, 40ms to 80ms or so, can fatten you way up yet no one (normal) will notice anything other than the fact that you just sound bigger & better. That can mess with your attack on really fast parts, but that's what "pre-delay" is adjustable for, and that's why you have 100 presets instead of 1.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 17 Jun 2009 10:57 am

Tom Brumley used to show up with two Session 500 amps which he ran from the stereo outputs of his final effects unit and set them up that he was in the crossfire between them. Such a rig is dreamy good for the picker but as has been discussed above does nothing at all for the audience (other than the presumed added performing brilliance due to the sweet environment surrounding the player).

Getting a "stereo" rig properly reproduced through a sound system is not such a groovy deal; one could mic each amp and then pan them hard left and right to transfer the stereo experience to the 10% of the audience located in the exact center of the speaker pattern, but the remaining 90% of the audience will either hear primarily one amp or the other but not both of these signals, this is a net signal loss to the majority of listeners.

Complicating this problem is the fact that most other instruments in the mix will be running mono on stage and then be panned into the PA rig for aural separation and discrete placement in the stereo image, any instruments running stereo on stage will either show up effectively in the center of the image if panned out as mentioned above or have both sides of the stereo source combined at the console into something approaching mono to get the mix image correct.

When the question of stereo outputs to a PA arises, keyboard players are often the worst offenders, insisting that even though they are only listening to a single monitor themselves, the PA operator must take both ("stereo") outputs and pan them hard left and right in the mix. As mentioned above, this is not a net improvement at all, but who can argue with the musicians when their mind is made up and we are ten minutes away from downbeat?

The bottom line is that in a live situation running stereo for any instrument is pretty much for the enjoyment of the player alone and a royal pain in the backside for whomever is resopnsible for getting the sound out to the paying customers in a reasonably accurate and musical fashion. That being said, if it serves you then go for it, just remember that you are doing it for your own comfort and joy and that the audience can't tell the difference.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 17 Jun 2009 11:21 am

Bob Mueller asks "How about just two speakers out of phase???
Like a Twin and reverse one speaker. Any one tried it?"

...that would be yes, Bob, but not on purpose. Running mono with speakers out of phase sets up endless comb filtering, a drastic and continuous variation of frequency response across the radiation pattern, with the most notable effect being loss of volume, general wimpiness of tone and the complete cancellation of low frequencies.

I like my low frequencies a lot and would never do anything to compromise the consistency of my tone. Nonetheless if you like it then do it but be prepared for a few surprises down the road....

Alan Harrison · Post by **Alan Harrison** » 18 Jun 2009 5:16 am

IMHO, I think we all play our best when we like the sound that we hear comming from our equipment, either on stage or in our practice rooms.

My favorite tone is when I come out of the Profex II into my Evans SE-200 on one side and into a Fender Stage 160 on the other. I set the Stage 160 tone just like I used to set the old Fender Twins, and with just a little reverb. But....."I sure hate to tote that Fender around".

Clete Ritta · Post by **Clete Ritta** » 25 Nov 2009 5:48 am

I used to run my guitar through an MXR Stereo Chorus into two amps, a Fender Bandmaster and an Ampeg V4, which sounded amazing. Nowadays, I run guitar, mandolin and pedal steel through a tube amp (usually a Fender 65 Twin RI) live for many of the reasons previously posted, luggage being foremost on my list.
There was a post about the old SPX90 processor recently, and it inspired me to experiment with a stereo rig. I ran the SPX stereo out to a TubeWorks MosValve 962 into a Marshall JCM Lead 900 1960A stereo cab. This turned out exceptionally well! The slanted 4x12 cab projects a nice near field stereo image from many of the SPX patches. I haven't used it live yet, but I have a feeling I will!
Clete

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 25 Nov 2009 11:47 am

I've paid a lot of attention to this whole question and have been running various true stereo rigs for many years.
There is a relatively false assumption that since the audience is at some remove from your physical cabinetry, they won't hear the stereo affect.
If there is any separation at all between two cabinets, phase cancellation, early reflections, stage geometry and other acoustic effects ensure that the signals from the two cabinets will arrive at different times to listeners ears at any point in the venue. Sorry, it's just acoustical science.
There is a very good reason why music producers like Bruce Swedien (Thriller) record everything they can in stereo pairs.
Whether that difference enhances the listening experience, includes debate on taste and perception of the audience, which I agree to be a slippery slope.
I do know I get frequent and sincere compliments on my tone, overall balance and use of stereo effects from soundmen and crew members at nearly every gig, and often members of the audience.
It's surprising how many musicians want to see what kind of rig I'm using, based on the sound they're hearing out front.
I have heard my rig played by several fine players from out in the audience, and I can assure you that the stereo effect, and use of delays, chorus, etc. is definitely noticeable and appealing.

We often use in-ear monitors, and mixing the steel off to the sides for everyone allows it to sound fat in the "ears", and also not intrude on the mono placement everyone else prefers for their vox/instrument.
The Wallace Stereo Steel rig I'm using is very light in weight and compact, and can cover a large stage, or translate very softly to a smaller venue, where the stereo is particularly apparent and attractive from the audience. Many of the smaller places and showcase rooms are upstairs, and it's a joy to transport after larger one-amp rigs.
So for my mileage, Stereo rig= no brainer.

I'm fascinated by guys who will endlessly prattle about the benefits to them of vintage guitars, zirconium bars, quality cables, high-dollar amps, and what shoes to wear... and then denigrate a stereo set-up as "only beneficial to the player".
Now that's funny.

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 26 Nov 2009 5:01 am

Not Many People actually have true Stereo Pedal Steels or Even Preamps.
I have the Alesis Q20 Effects Processor and The Effects give a Stereo Effect. I also use a Behringer Stereo image processor which enhances the depth and Width of field.

I have always been interested in a Two Pickup Guitar wired for TRUE stereo into a TRUE STEREO Preamp, Not like the one I have that has Walker Stereo Steel Written on the front.

The Effect should be like two pickups in phase on a six string guitar, That Mellow Tone like Merle Travis Got on his Super 400 Gibson. It Should be interesting to say the least with The Two Pickup sound being mixed in The Air Space between the two speakers. I believe that Stereo makes a big difference, if only to the player, If He is happy with the sound then the Audience Hears it in his music.

BTW.
Gerry Walker is a Great Guy and
The Walker Preamp I have is a great preamp, but Gerry missed it on the power hookup, mine was reverse wired, Anyone wanting to check theirs, plug an Outlet tester into the convenience outlet on the back of the preamp and that should tell you if mine was a fluke or if they have this problem too. I reduced the hum on my rig by correcting the wiring.

I just got my Dekley (First PSG) about a month ago and I had used this rig for 6 String only for about 4 or 5 years. When I plugged up the Dekley into it, I had to re adjust all the tone controls, SURPRISE,SURPRISE,SURPRISE,
Every one of them to 12 O'clock, Which tells me that Gerry Walker was Dead On when he designed this preamp.

It Just Ain't Stereo, Sorry Gerry

John

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 5 Dec 2009 12:49 am

I remember hearing a player in the late '70's (Dave Zeigler, Cal's Corral, Hawthorne, CA), one amp was dry, the other had the gorgeous BOSS CE-1 chorus, and the dimensionality of that sound was achingly beautiful. So like some others, I KNOW the audience can hear stereo imaging.

My question is this: I'm moving into delays and reverbs and choruses with stereo outs, so I'm considering going back to stereo sound again. I lugged 2 amps around for a couple of years, then packed it in.

I remember playing a loaner Peavey Stereo Chorus 212, I believe, and like the sound quite a bit, and loved one powerful amp giving my stereo sound.

Does that amp have twin inputs that would give me stereo separation from those effects pedals? Anyone have extensive experience with that amp? Is there any other single amp with stereo capabilities that sounds good with pedal steel? I need a lot of power, btw.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 5 Dec 2009 8:09 am

When a steeler's setup starts to get more complex, I would seriously consider going with a rack setup.
It's much more versatile.
Many years ago I played through two Nashville 400s.
At that time, Jeff Newman was writing in the Peavey magazine and was recommending the Peavey 750 amp and ProFex setup along with a pair of 15" speaker cabinets.
I have built on that concept over the years and would have trouble going back to a combo amp arrangement again.
You can't get the full steroe effect through one amp, you really need to get a separation between the speakers.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 5 Dec 2009 9:29 am

Playing in stereo (such as different R/L delay so that vibrato gives slightly different pitches) is fun for playing solo, or maybe duet. But with a band I think it fills up too much sonic space. I would have to play too loud in order to be heard clearly.

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 5 Dec 2009 12:30 pm

Good input, Earnest!

Erv, the trouble is that on most bandstands space is very constrained, even with 2 cabinets, I wouldn't be able to get much more speaker separation than the width of a standard amp anyway. I do see your point, and have been considering that more and more lately. Plus the components are lighter.

But on the other hand, I often have no room for my current rack, so an amp with no FX, or just a clamped on PodXT, is all that's feasible. I guess a person benefits from having 2 or 3 size rigs, eh?

Brett Lanier · Post by **Brett Lanier** » 5 Dec 2009 11:43 pm

I don't like playing in stereo as much as mono. I've noticed that I always have to shorten the delay time too much for what I like. I think it has to do with what Earnest said. I'm loving the way it sounds using my fender and peavey amps together, but it's a real chore to carry, and my tone isn't as good when I can't use both.

The Steel Guitar Forum

Runing in Stereo

Stereo

Two Amps +Profex II