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Topic: Club owner docks band for ASCAP/BMI fees? |
Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 16 Nov 2009 2:19 pm |
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I played a gig Saturday at a little club in Salado, TX. At the end of the night the band leader went to get paid and the club owner 'withheld' 25.00 for ASCAP/BMI fees. This is a door gig, and I've typically done ok there, and it's not like the 25.00 is that big a deal, but I sorta resent that the club passed on what rightfully should be their expense.
Am I off base here????? Apparently not according to the ASCAP web site FAQs, check out number 12, quoted below:
http://www.ascap.com/licensing/licensingfaq.html
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12. Aren't musicians, entertainers and DJ's responsible for obtaining permission for music they perform?
Some people mistakenly assume that musicians and entertainers must obtain licenses to perform copyrighted music or that businesses where music is performed can shift their responsibility to musicians or entertainers. The law says all who participate in, or are responsible for, performances of music are legally responsible. Since it is the business owner who obtains the ultimate benefit from the performance, it is the business owner who obtains the license. Music license fees are one of the many costs of doing business.
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Lost Pines Studio
"I'm nuts about bolts" |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 16 Nov 2009 2:30 pm
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Next time, play all original material. If you don't have enough songs, fill out your set with instrumental blues jams. 
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Stephen Gregory
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Posted 16 Nov 2009 6:44 pm
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| This is his cost not yours. Most bands are already "upside down" when they leave the house. If you really consider the cost of the gear,the fuel, the time, etc. there's really nothing left. Unless you begged him to hire you I would ABSOLUTELY not participate in his music licensing costs any more then I would pay his utilities or his insurance. When bands allow this type of ripoff it makes it worse for every other band in town. |
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Alvin Blaine
From:
Picture Rocks, Arizona, USA
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Posted 16 Nov 2009 7:42 pm
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If he is having bands "pay to play" more than 50 nights a year, then he is making bank off you guys.
The average a club pays, in ASCAP/BMI Fees, is $1200 a year. If he takes $25 a night, from bands, five nights a week for 52 weeks, that's $6500.
He can pay the ASCAP fee for almost 5 1/2 years with what he's ripping off the bands for each year.
I would definitely report him to ASCAP/BMI and and kind of city/county licensing board.
_________________
http://www.oldbluesound.com/about.htm
http://www.facebook.com/cowboytwang
Last edited by Alvin Blaine on 16 Nov 2009 9:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 16 Nov 2009 8:00 pm
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| definitely! |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 16 Nov 2009 8:04 pm
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We played a festival back early summer. The buyer sent us his contract which contained a clause that the band would be responsible for any "patent or copyright infringement issues that may arise". I refused to sign it and told him to have his lawyer check out federal copyright law. He sent the contract back with the paragraph struck, and I signed it and we played. We bands have to be on guard as I see this kind of thing may be a problem that buyers will continue to try and pass on to us.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Alvin Blaine
From:
Picture Rocks, Arizona, USA
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Posted 16 Nov 2009 9:14 pm
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| chris ivey wrote: |
| definitely! |
Sorry Chris, I just put Windows 7 on this laptop and it was set to automatically fix my bad spelling. It's just that my spelling is so bad it changes it to a completely different word.
I just reconfigured the spell check so that I can pick what word to change it to.
_________________
http://www.oldbluesound.com/about.htm
http://www.facebook.com/cowboytwang |
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Jeff Hyman
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 17 Nov 2009 5:30 am
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| Ya know.... all these type of money issues are resolved when there is a written contract in the loop. If a club owner tried to pull this on me, I'd simply tell him that it's not in the contract and this will be my last gig at your establishment, and I want a receipt that the $25.00 was deducted for ASCAP/BMI fees. |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 17 Nov 2009 5:32 am
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Alvin,
I wasn't sure what the annual fee is, but this club has bands 2 nights a week, so that's $2600, still way more than a year's fees I assume? To top it off, the 'door split' is something like 70/30, band/house, and the 25.00 comes out of the band's 70%. The 30% is supposedly, the 'overhead' associated with collecting the cover at the door, etc. (etc.??) I HAVE considered reporting this to ASCAP/BMI.. It's just wrong.
Unfortunately, this club is one of the few thriving (apparently) country venues around, and the club has its choice of bands that will play for those terms. Even with all the 'deductions', as a sideman I do pretty well there, usually $150+.. I think the principle of the 25.00 is really my issue with the whole arrangement.
Hey b0b, this particular artist does probably a set worth of his original tunes, we should get a rebate it seems? He's paying himself????
_________________
Lost Pines Studio
"I'm nuts about bolts" |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 17 Nov 2009 7:07 am
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A typical club owner tactic.  |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 17 Nov 2009 9:25 am
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Barry, yeah, it smells doesn't it?
On the other side of the coin, a few weeks ago I did a gig with a different band at a place called Nite Life in Somerville, TX. This is also a door gig, and that particular night there was something going on in the area, County Fair or something, so the attendance was way down. These little clubs in small communities are very susceptible to 'other things' causing a low turnout. The local HS Football game on Friday nights will just kill club attendance.
Whatever it was, at the end of the night, Earlen, the club owner comes over to the band leader and hands him the money, and it's equivalent to a 'typical' door receipt on a good night. His comment was "Hey, you guys worked hard, it wasn't your fault, and we're in this thing together, so it's only right." When I heard that, I went and found him and thanked him personally, since he must have gone in the hole substantially by doing that. Earlen and his wife own and run the club and they are awfully nice folks, a welcome change from the behavior discussed above.
_________________
Lost Pines Studio
"I'm nuts about bolts" |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
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Posted 17 Nov 2009 12:59 pm
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Bill
Your story about Earlen brings to mind Thurman Love, who ran the Cabaret Dance Hall in Bandera TX for the last few years of its existence. Thurman was experienced in the hospitality/restaurant business but didn't know much about the pitfalls of running a dance hall.
He gave Bush a guarantee vs. a percentage, and gave the band/road crew dinners as well, which averaged $20 per. This means he paid big bucks plus gave away $200-250 in food each time we played there. Johnny B.'s comment was "Thurman is too nice to run a dance hall. His days are numbered." Sure enough, they were.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Roger Miller
From:
Cedar Falls, Ia.
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Posted 18 Nov 2009 2:24 pm
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| I beleive he deserves to pay taxes on that money if you gotta pay it. Also turn him in immediately before he charges anyone else. |
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Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
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Posted 18 Nov 2009 4:27 pm
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| Roger Miller wrote: |
| I beleive he deserves to pay taxes on that money if you gotta pay it. Also turn him in immediately before he charges anyone else. |
Turn him in to who?
If you don't like the terms, renegotiate or take a walk. Those are hard words, but it will eventually come to that anyway.
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Roger Miller
From:
Cedar Falls, Ia.
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Posted 18 Nov 2009 4:38 pm
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| I was thinking in terms of a lawyer, but your right, take a walk, it's not worth that for sure. Pretty ballsey of the owner to do that. |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
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Posted 18 Nov 2009 6:02 pm
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I'm familiar with the club in Salado. I never enjoyed playing there anyway.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Leslie Ehrlich
From:
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
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Posted 18 Nov 2009 9:07 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
| Next time, play all original material. If you don't have enough songs, fill out your set with instrumental blues jams. |
That looks like a great idea. I don't care much for playing cover tunes anyway. Playing original material is a lot more fun.
_________________
Sho-Bud Pro III + Marshall JMP 2204 half stack = good grind! |
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Stephen Gregory
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Posted 21 Nov 2009 12:30 pm
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| Leslie Ehrlich wrote: |
| b0b wrote: |
| Next time, play all original material. If you don't have enough songs, fill out your set with instrumental blues jams. |
That looks like a great idea. I don't care much for playing cover tunes anyway. Playing original material is a lot more fun. |
The average fan likes to hear stuff they know and are familiar with. |
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Leslie Ehrlich
From:
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
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Posted 21 Nov 2009 10:17 pm
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| Stephen Gregory wrote: |
| The average fan likes to hear stuff they know and are familiar with. |
I prefer not to play for 'average fan'. I've played in cover bands for years, and I'm fed up with it.
_________________
Sho-Bud Pro III + Marshall JMP 2204 half stack = good grind! |
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Bo Borland
From:
South Jersey -
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Posted 22 Nov 2009 5:20 am
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The club/radio station/store etc has always been responsible for payment to ASCAP/BMI/SESAC, not the band.. this is a rip off.
I am working a new joint that re-opened recently that pays the sound guy (read sound system owner) out of the bands money.
I would rather have our sound system and no sound guy than this dude. |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 22 Nov 2009 6:46 am
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We're probably done playing there. The band leader emailed the club-owner, and mentioned that he found that the club was actually in violation of what ASCAP/BMI consider the law (See my quote from the ASCAP web site in the initial post). He did say it wasn't the 25 dollars, just the principle.
The club emailed back and said this was the first band that had 'squabbled' (their word) about the 25.00 bucks, and that the club had 'always' deducted ASCAP/BMI fees. I know that to be untrue because I've played at this place many times over the last 8 or 10 years, under several different owner/mgrs, and this was the first time it's ever been deducted.
Anyway, I figure that was the last time I'll work there, which I'm fine with. Like Herb says it wasn't that much fun anyway, and the attitude of this current management 'regime' puts it on my blacklist.
By the way, I didn't even mention the constant 'hassling' of the band by the owner during the night:
"You guys have too much dead time between songs." (which happened anytime the singer got a drink of water between songs apparently. We hit tunes back to back all night. I guess they wanted us to overlap songs like the disco guys????)
"I wish you guys had played some different material that set." (yep, the dance floor was full the entire set, must have been terrible song choice.)
"blah blah blah.." (it was ALWAYS something all night long.)
Ah well... what goes around comes around.
_________________
Lost Pines Studio
"I'm nuts about bolts" |
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 22 Nov 2009 8:13 am
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My wife recently rented a hall to put off a benefit. The hall charged her these fees on top of the rental. Is that right?
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 22 Nov 2009 8:24 am
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Tell that owner to buy a juke box - that way, he can control everything. Also, he'll get stuck having to pay ASCAP/BMI. Perfect solution.  |
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Theresa Galbraith
From:
Goodlettsville,Tn. USA
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Posted 21 May 2010 12:51 pm
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| The club owners should know these things. |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 21 May 2010 5:21 pm
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| Quote: |
| The club owners should know these things. |
They know them, Theresa, they're just always trying to skirt them, like in this instance, pawning them off on the band. |
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