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Topic: A Big Bouquet of Inherent Tone |
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 24 Oct 2009 10:40 pm |
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A Big Bouquet of Inherent Tone
Here's a recording of four pedal steels, each plugged directly into the recorder with no volume pedal or effects. I didn't use pedals either.
http://soundhost.net/b0b/BOUQUET.mp3
The guitars are: - Rickenbacker S-8
- Fender 1000 (back neck)
- Williams D-12 (front neck)
- Williams D-12 (back neck)
- Desert Rose S-8
Can you hear the differences? Can you identify the guitars from their "inherent tone"?
For those who want to play the game, there are 7 sections: intro A A B A B A, and then the ending (which doesn't count).
These guitars all sound much better with an amp, by the way. I just made this recording to demonstrate how different the actual tones coming from the guitars are.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Raybob Bowman
From:
S. Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
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Posted 24 Oct 2009 11:53 pm
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Interesting bOb. I couldn't tell which brand was which but I can say the first A part sounds similar to the third A (after first B) part, both less treble than the others. My favorite tone for the amp settings you have would be a tie between the second A part and the second B part.
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Sierra U12 4+5 / 1933 Dobro / homemade Tele B-bender |
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Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
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Posted 25 Oct 2009 1:10 am
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b0b
There is a marked difference in tone between the guitars. However, I don't know the Williams or Desert Rose guitars to be able to recognise their tonal qualties. I am going to plump for the Fender 1000 on part 2.
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Show Pro D10 - amber (8+6), MSA D10 Legend XL Signature - redburst (9+6), Sho-Bud Pro 111 Custom (8+6), Emmons black Push-Pull D10 (8+5), Zum D10 (8x8), Hudson pedal resonator. Telonics TCA-500, Webb 614-E, |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 25 Oct 2009 6:59 am
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Okay, I'm already confused so let's name the sections of the song:
intro
verse1
verse2
bridge1
verse3
bridge2
verse4
No amp was used, Raybob. If I was using an amp and reverb, setting it the way I like it for each guitar, you would have a much harder time telling the difference.
I should also mention the 3rd-party pickups:
Williams front neck: Tonealigner
Williams back neck: George L's 12-1
Desert Rose: Truetone
The Fender and Rick have stock pickups.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 25 Oct 2009 7:49 am
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I am (as I've said before when Reece has posed his "blindfold modern guitar ID test") not familiar with some of the guitar, ID'ing them would be impossible. The 1st bridge sounds somewhat Fendery to me - that's my only "guess" (none of my Fenders are stock so it's hard for me to pin that down as well).
But the recording sure proved the point. There are clearly distinct tonal differences, and while some of them could be masked to some degree by picking position in relation to the bridge and attack strength, most (if nnot all) would still be different enough to be noticeable.
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No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 25 Oct 2009 9:47 am
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There's no question that there are some significant differences in the recorded sound of these instruments. Whether or not those differences are mainly due to differences in the guitars' free mechanical vibrational signature - impulse response - is not clear to me.
Of course, there are significant design differences between an old Rickenbacker, an old Fender, and a modern Williams and Desert Rose. But there are also some very different pickups, probably pickup placement differences, and possibly differences in electronic controls on these guitars. The pickup and its placement relative to the scale length and volume/tone controls can have a large effect on the resultant sound. The fact that you're running directly into a recording board (what's the input impedance?) could produce significant impedance loading effects. If you recall, when Darvin did his tests, they were all of a 'modern pedal steel' design and the pickups were pretty similar as I recall.
Mostly, I heard what I interpreted as different levels of brightness and pickup placement over a pretty similar basic sound. Aside from their action in sensing the string, pickups are basically RLC filters. To me, if one wants to really analyze the one thing you can't fairly easily change - the guitar's mechanical vibrational signature - one must eliminate the effect of pickup, electronic, and impedance loading differences. Otherwise, it strikes me as fair game to run them through an electronic EQ to do this.
My guesses, based mainly on my experience with the different pickups (as best I could figure out - I don't really know what kind of old Ricky pickup is on here). But even run straight into the board, there are a still a lot of things going on that could completely confound this:
intro - Desert Rose (Truetone)
verse1 - Rickenbacker (Stock)
verse2 - Williams (12-1)
bridge1 - Fender (Stock)
verse3 - Rickenbacker (Stock)
bridge2 - Williams (Tonealigner)
verse4 - Desert Rose (Truetone)
Overall - this isn't the way the guitars were designed to be played. The older guitars were designed to be played through a high-impedance tube amp. The newer guitars were designed to be played through a somewhat lower-impedance solid-state amp. The pickups and electronics were designed with that in mind, and running them straight into a recording board gives one type of sound, but not necessarily their 'inherent' sound. I still think that if one wants to talk about 'inherent tone', Ed Packard's measurement approach using both pickup and contact mike(s) is the best approach - http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=169240
My opinions, of course. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 25 Oct 2009 10:02 am
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| well, 'my' opinion is that it does show 'inherent' tone 'as it relates to the others in the test'. since they're all on an even playing field they do show differences. cool, b0b. once you bring a cord out of the output to any amp you are altering the tone of the steel guitar. |
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Jeff Bradshaw
From:
Leslieville, Alberta - Canada
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Posted 25 Oct 2009 5:48 pm
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| Thanks b0b...most interesting!!! |
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Jack Francis
From:
Queen Creek, Arizona, USA
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Posted 25 Oct 2009 6:40 pm
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I'm thinkin' it was the 6th guitar that I heard. 
A totally uneducated guess from a guy with a tin ear!!
_________________
DESERT ROSE D-10 8/5...Joe Naylor "SteelSeat"...
Gallien-Krueger MB200 amplifier through an Alessis MicroVerb w/15'Peavey cab.
TELES & STRATS...
FENDER TWIN & SEYMOUR DUNCAN 50W tube amps...1-12" 2-12" & 4-12" cabs and a FENDER MUSTANG-3 |
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Pat Comeau
From:
New Brunswick, Canada
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Posted 25 Oct 2009 9:30 pm
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I'll guess pretty close to Dave except of the 2 williams...i'll guess the verse 2 tonealigner
and bridge 2 GL 12-1
intro - Desert Rose (Truetone)
verse1 - Rickenbacker (Stock)
verse2 - Williams (Tonealigner)
bridge1 - Fender (Stock)
verse3 - Rickenbacker (Stock)
bridge2 - Williams (12-1)
verse4 - Desert Rose (Truetone)
by the way...nice playing B0B it reminds me of some old Hank Sr songs .
_________________
Comeau SD10 4x5, Comeau S10 3x5, Peavey Session 500,Fender Telecaster,Fender Stratocaster, Fender Precision,1978 Ovation Viper electric. Alvarez 4 strings Violin electric.
Click the links to listen to my Comeau's Pedal Steel Guitars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIYiaomZx3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2GhZTN_yXI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvDTw2zNriI |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 26 Oct 2009 7:02 am
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Thanks, Pat.
A few hits but mostly misses.
Dave Mudgett points out that there are significant differences in the design and construction of these guitars. That's my point. When guitars are built differently, they don't sound the same.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 26 Oct 2009 8:36 am
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FWIW - my main point was that to compare the 'inherent tone/timbre' of the instruments, one must put them on an equal playing field, and that includes pickups and electronics.
An awful lot of ink has been used on these 'inherent tone threads' to argue that the 'inherent vibrational signature' based on the mechanical vibrations created by a simple, controlled strum of the strings tends to override the influence of the hands. Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't - but in order to distinguish that, one must control the other variables.
In one sense, pickups and their placement relative to the scale length are a design feature. But in another sense, these are very easily changed, especially the pickup itself, and many people do that routinely. Is a Telecaster with 3 Strat pickups with Strat placement still a Telecaster? My experience tells me that such a 'Tele' sounds virtually identical to a Strat. I suspect this is also the case with steel guitars, being basically the planks of wood with mechanics that they are. My bet would be that the biggest differences would be seen from pickups and exactly how the string is anchored at either end - but corroboration of anything is probably best answered as Ed Packard is doing it.
I don't claim to answer this type of question, but nor do I think this type of test answers it either.
My opinions, naturally. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 26 Oct 2009 9:30 am
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I'm just saying that each of my guitars has a unique inherent tone. Whether the difference is in the construction of the body, the changer, the endplates or the pickups is largely irrelevant to me, the player, or to the listener. The bottom line is that the inherent tone of each of these instruments is different.
One thing that surprised me in this test was how much the two necks of the Williams, with two very different pickups, sounded alike. I didn't expect that.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 26 Oct 2009 11:02 am
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I enjoyed listening, thanks. I admit up front that I don't know which is which. I will take a random guess though. There is no question that each has an inherent tone. I can't see how anyone could dispute that. So: wild guess:
Intro: Rick
V1: Desert Rose
V2: Williams
B1: Fender
V3: Desert Rose
B2: Williams
V4: Rick
As far as pickups go, I think they only enhance a certain frequency range as desired by the builder or player. I don't believe that that equates to a pickup changing the basic signature sound of a particular guitar. |
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Jimmie Martin
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 26 Oct 2009 11:08 am guitars
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| B0B how do you get those recordings on the forum? Is it some elaborate devise? I can't figure out how you guys do it. Jimmie |
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Jack Francis
From:
Queen Creek, Arizona, USA
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Posted 26 Oct 2009 11:49 am
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I think that the way your doing this, b0b, makes since ..taking everything but the guitars out of the loop.
I think that as soon as the amps are involved everyone EQ's to get the sound that they want, and what they hear in their heads.
They'll purdy much all sound the same. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 26 Oct 2009 11:52 am Re: guitars
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People seem to be hearing the different guitars, but totally missing at guessing which is which. Interesting...
| Jimmie Martin wrote: |
| B0B how do you get those recordings on the forum? Is it some elaborate devise? I can't figure out how you guys do it. Jimmie |
Yes, it is an elaborate device. I have my own web server, and I upload the files to that. Most people don't have one.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
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Posted 26 Oct 2009 12:41 pm
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I'm not familiar with the Desert Rose, but I would say that the 1st and 3rd verses are the Williams (not sure which neck is which) The first bridge is the Fender, and the 2nd bridge is the Rick, the remaining verses may very well be the Desert Rose. Lots of fun!
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Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord, |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 27 Oct 2009 9:29 am
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Okay, I'll give you one: the Rick only appears once. It's the first bridge. Funny how everyone thought that was the Fender. We have these preconceived notions of the Fender "edge", when in fact there were brasher sounding guitars made in that era. The Fender had a more hi-fi, inherently modern tone.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 27 Oct 2009 11:55 am
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I've argued many times Reece's line that it is very difficult to impossible to ID guitars simply by listening to them in a double-blind way. But if one wants to have a fair shot at it - IMO, one of the big difficulties in identifying guitars or pickups in this line-recorded setting is that we're used to hearing them in a different one. The Fender pedal steels I've heard run into a high-input-impedance Fender Twin or Dual Showman Reverb did in fact have a pretty bright sound, to my ears.
These are electric instruments. I don't think it's possible to surgically separate the guitar from the electronics, except by measuring or listening to the mechanical vibrations directly.
| Quote: |
| Whether the difference is in the construction of the body, the changer, the endplates or the pickups is largely irrelevant to me, the player, or to the listener. |
In many past threads, I think it's been largely conceded that most listeners can't double-blind distinguish between pedal steels 'in the wild'. But as a player, it matters to me whether or not differences in this so-called 'inherent tone/timbre' are due to the mechanics or the electronics. If it's electronics - pickups, cables, VP, effects, amp, or speaker - it's easy to change. But if there's something intrinsically in the mechanics - the body, the changer, or whatever - it's completely different.
To me, it gets to my earlier point - what is 'inherent' in 'inherent tone'? Many of us obviously have very different points of view. I guess that has been the thrust of my comments on this. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 6 Nov 2009 3:26 pm Solution?
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b0b, while I know that it was not your point (yours well taken), could you post the solution to your question?
Thanks! ... J-D. |
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Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
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Posted 6 Nov 2009 4:41 pm Bouquet of Roses
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| Quote: |
| Okay, I'll give you one: the Rick only appears once. It's the first bridge. Funny how everyone thought that was the Fender. |
Well, I haven't heard enough Williams, or Desert Roses to know which is which. I thought Bridge 1 was the Fender also, so my only guess is down the toilet.
terry |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 6 Nov 2009 5:07 pm
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- Fender 1000 (back neck)
- Desert Rose S-8
- Fender 1000 (back neck)
- Rickenbacker S-8
- Williams D-12 (front neck)
- Fender 1000
- Williams D-12 (back neck)
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Bill Miller
From:
Gaspe, Quebec, Canada
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Posted 7 Nov 2009 7:47 am
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| Quote: |
One thing that surprised me in this test was how much the two necks of the Williams, with two very different pickups, sounded alike. I didn't expect that.
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Bob, that part doesn't surprise me at all. It seems like pick-ups have a very small role to play in the sound of a pedal steel. I think of each instrument as having its own voice, the same way each person does. If you hook up a dozen of the most popular vocal microphones and have the same person sing through each of them, their voice will sound more or less the same through all of them with only subtle differences. Pick-ups in guitars are just the same. It's a generalization but I believe it mostly holds true.
You aren't using amps, but I find individual amps have a much more noticeable bearing on how a guitar's voice will sound than any pick-up. The proof of this can be heard on the new Show Pro Cd where all of the players are using the same brand of guitar with mostly Lawrence 710 pick-ups. A good many different amplifiers were used however and that, obviously along with varying playing techniques makes the steel on each track sound different. |
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