QUESTION for newbies....................

[Ray Montee]

As a new/or relatively new steel player that has
reached the point of wanting to acquire some instructional materials.......

WHAT IS IT that you reach out for?

The Artist/Author's name ID with the course?

The songs featured in the learning materials?

Surely there's something that grabs YOU, what might it be?

WHY WOULD YOU........settle for a basically unknown instructor source, as opposed to a recognized top performer with decades of fabulous credits to his name?

[Ray Shakeshaft]

I have a feeling that I am being led up the proverbial garden path but what the hell..........

What would a beginner want? They would want someone who has been taught to teach. Why is it that in popular music we have people who because they can play, extremely well in some cases, ALSO think they can teach. Teaching is a skill in itself. Knowing how people learn does not come naturally.

Check out steel tuition against piano or violin tuition for example. Those guys have been at it for years and a 60 minute DVD of how to play a couple of tunes is not the way forward. The beginner might not want to play those two tunes anyway and unless the lesson is structured to make the skill transferable it is of relatively little value. (Okay so you can now play two tunes - so what?).

I admit that like everyone else I have not seen every bit of teaching material available but of what I have seen I am not impressed.

Knowing the learner's starting point is important yet practically all the material I have seen would be useless unless the beginner had some previous musical knowledge. (How many forum members came to steel guitar without having some previous musical know - how?) Steel guitar relies on converted guitarists or other instruments because the material is simply not suitable for real raw beginners.

Scales and how chords are formed seem none existent in most material yet if the student is to progress that is vital information. Perhaps it is avoided because there is a belief that today's student wants instant success. I would dispute that. I will guarantee that every good player that puts up MP3s on this board know his/her theory.

Finally I would say that the teaching of most instruments associated with popular music are not much better.

In my opinion there are two ways forward, a live experienced teacher who knows how to teach or a 'conversion' from another instrument and you work it out yourself based on previously acquired knowledge (it takes longer).

[Bill Creller]

From my kids having lessons on instruments, I've learned that the teacher is not always a good player, but knows all the necessary requirements for teaching and knowing how the student is progressing.(or not)

Exceptions would be folks like JB was, and other pros in the business, but not all pros can teach.

Regardless of how any course is taught,In my belief and personal view the student has to eat, sleep,and dream about the steel guitar to make it happen. Practice is paramount of course. If these things can't be met, it's a waste of time and money.

[Gary Meixner]

Ray,

A "newbie" by definition is not necessarily going to know who the finest practictioners of the craft are. Like most of us, the path to finding ourselves as musicians is a winding one, and we are bound to run down a number of dead ends along the way. The steel guitar is such a fascinating instrument that it can easily win the heart of a new musician entirely on it's own. For some it will be the playing of an idividual artist or group of artists that make them take up the instrument. If lessons or materials were availble from our heros most of us would take advantage. Once someone has the bug they are bound to devour anything on the subject.

Gary

[K.J. Tucker]

With the '0' of musical talent or knowledge I follow what Bill Creller said 'but knows all the necessary requirements for teaching ' .

This is what I look for as I am a 'newbie'

Although I feel very blessed as to have had some direction from Rick Alexander before his passing .
He was introduced to me by Herb Remington , so I have had some great help , but practice time is the hardest thing to find with all the that life keeps throwing at us .

Teaching by a good teacher and the basics , these are the things I look for in and instructor .

IMHO

Tuck

8~)

[Mitch Druckman]

After lurking on the forum for a while to understand the basics, I discovered a couple of tunings from songs that I liked. Then I looked for materials that were available in those tunings.

The best learning method would be to study with a teacher/player in person, if you can find one.

Is Ray Montee getting ready to make a DVD or write a book? I hope so!

[Mark MacKenzie]

Hey Ray,

For me. it would be alot of things. A CD so I can listen. Maybe a track slowed down would be nice. I learned Joaquin's Honeysuckle Rose and the only way I could get it was to slow it way down. I didn't have tab, though.

Correct tab. Man, there is nothing so frustrating as to come upon a mistake in tab you are trying to learn. It makes me not trust the rest of the tab or book. I have seen where some slides are tabbed on the wrong string. It makes me stop, double check everything, really ruins the learning of the tune.

Some history on the tunes would be great. It actually encourages learning I think especially if there is some historical significance. Photos, too.

I've seen your videos, Ray, so let me be first in line for your book!

Also, technique. You may have been holding the bar a certain way for a certain reason for so long you don't think anything about it but to a newbie, its new information.


The thing that absolutely kills a book for me, is for someone to include music theory. A few pages of basic music theory cannot hope to explain anything valid and really takes away space from the tunes and how to play steel. I don't need some one to explain a whole note to me and that would be another book entirely.

Also endless pages on how to read tab are space eaters, too. Give the reader some credit and get straight to the chase.

Don't worry about putting in too much. A great book is one that I can go back to again and again and still get something out of it.

My two cents!
Mark

[Mark Mansueto]

Ray, I think what a new student wants may not be what he needs. A good instructor will read the student and lead him in a course that will give the desired result.

I had years of private guitar lessons and I also gave lessons to a few people and in my experience the new student wants to learn songs. Unfortunately without knowing chords or scales or technique makes it easy to get frustrated.

Some basic theory can be very helpful.

[basilh]

I believe Mr. Shakeshaft has the right handle on it..

I know where Ray is coming from and I couldn't agree more, In fact I could, but it may upset some if I did..

Teachers of ANY subject normally go through an extensive training period of some years.
LEARNING HOW TO TEACH..

Admittedly JB and a select few others would be the exceptions.

[Stephen Abruzzo]

WHY WOULD YOU........settle for a basically unknown instructor source, as opposed to a recognized top performer with decades of fabulous credits to his name?

Well, I'd prefer a "teacher" of decades experience to a "performer" with the same. That being said, it's no guarantee that you will get "exactly" what you need out of a DVD (I assume Mr. Montee, that you are speaking of DVD/CD instruction?).

DVD/CD/tape/book instruction is often a crapshoot at best as one can't generally "see it" before they buy it. What is a gold-mine for one person may not be for another.

What has been a boon to students is the proliferation of YouTube videos. It doesn't cost a thing and you get to view snippets of a DVD instruction online and that can guide one to making a "better" decision.

[George Piburn]

edit

[Mike Neer]

Teaching is not for everyone. I love teaching; I have been doing it successfully for a good number of years. However, I find that I enjoy teaching more intermediate to advanced players. Teaching a new player requires an extra amount of attention and patience. It's much easier for me to articulate my points under the assumption that the student has a fair amount of knowledge of music theory and harmony.

That said, a teacher with a great amount of patience and focus on the fundamentals of technique and a well-laid plan will serve a new player well. Doesn't require a killer player to do this, but you have to have your playing together.

[Josh Cho]

After 20 years of teaching guitar, I can honestly say that Songs are the best way to learn your instrument:

All the great jazz improvisationalists (coltrane, davis, et al) spent countless hours copying licks off records, for example.

Don't get me wrong, you NEED theory--but heavy theory early on can KILL a students passion .

For the record, I've been teaching guitar professionally since 1988 while in Music School studying Theory and Composition.

I still have an active practice to this day (mostly regular guitar, but I do have my lap steel students).

Josh

[Twayn Williams]

After 20 years of teaching guitar, I can honestly say that Songs are the best way to learn your instrument:

I would add the following caveat: The RIGHT songs are the way to teach. Each song should be chosen for the way it illustrates the musical fundamental you wish to impart.

Ex, on guitar I always start with chords. I usually also begin an intro to reading notation at the same time.

[Kirby Fergerson]

Hey Ray; much respect to your experience and immense talent.
I came to lap steel guitar by accident. A table saw accident which left my left hand severely damaged and ended my twenty five year love affair with my beloved 1969 les paul.
I had never seen a lap steel and had no idea how to even find a starting point.
My local music store proprietor obviously had less knowledge, as my first attempt at procuring a lap steel resulted in an instrument that looked like a chunk of an old 2x6 with a few strings and a pickup. It played much as it looked.
I became quite frustrated. There were so many unfamilliar tunings that I tried several before working with the c6 tuning.
That process alone took me a few months.
Lo and behold a friend told me about the steel guitar forum. O happy day!
I didn't choose an instructor but instead absorbed any and all information I could get my hands on.
If information from such an accomplished player as yourself were to become available I'm sure I would not be the only newbie eager to absorb this like a dry sponge absorbs spilled beer.
My search for information has been ardous but the supply of good learning materials is not as plentiful as one might think. It's kinda "get what ya can where ya can"
Just speaking from my own experience here.
Thanks for letting me vent
Kirby













i

[John Bushouse]

The best learning material I've ever had the opportunity to experience was the opportunity to live near someone who could teach me how to play.

The first lesson started off with something along the lines of "I play in open G. If you are interested in any of the other tunings, I won't be able to help you out."

Then we started with a song I knew, Hilo March. Key of D, we were off and running. I watched what he did and followed along. We spent a lot of time on slants, and also on how some players might approach it - Frank Ferara, David Nawahi, etc. And always a focus on form, and practice. But it was a very casual atmosphere, very comfortable. "What do you want to learn? Let's dive in."

I always thought I needed tab to learn. I am finding that watching another player play (and being in the same tuning) sinks in for me. For example, I bought Derrick Campbell's Sacred Steel DVD. No tab, just "watch this." Played up to speed as an introduction, played slow, chordal accompaniment, played up to speed, all with overhead camera work.

For other instructional material, a combination of the instructor, combined with the learning materials. A name I know will definitely draw me in.

[Ray Shakeshaft]

I think that we would all agree that an experienced live teacher offering that essential two way communication is the best option when trying to learn any instrument but given that lap steel is very much a minority instrument not many have that choice.

High priced DVDs are a leap into the dark but ask any teacher of any subject and one way of sending a class to sleep is offering them an hour of DVD. The material is rarely 100% relevant and unless they are used properly they are of little value so you pay for what can amount to ten minutes useful information. The written material that often comes with DVDs leaves a lot to be desired too.

The book/Cd does not offer two way communication but a well written book does offer something that can be read and re-read until the penny drops. Add a CD (that can be transferred onto your MP3 player) and that is a reasonable proposition - and you don't need a DVD player/laptop etc. BTW Not all books are well written.

We can achieve two way communication with Skype etc. but unfortunately it can be a little temperamental at the moment but like all modern technology the pace at which things improve can be startling. I know that a few teachers are using it and hopefully this service will expand as the service gets better.

Another major problem is what tuning to teach? See any thread from a beginner asking where to start and immediately they will be confused by opinions on how to tune the darn thing. Start talking about B11s E9s etc. to someone who not the slightest clue about chords and watch their eyes close and their enthusiasm wane. Teachers have a vested interest in getting their act together on this one and I reckon that anyone who can bring out some well thought out teaching material (book/cd?) for real beginners is on a winner (C6 six string? I would rather explain a C6 than a B11 )

I thank Ray Montee for starting this thread because I think that there are issues that need to be discussed if we want more people to enjoy playing lap steel. I am a firm believer that primarily people learn to play musical instruments for enjoyment rather than to be stars on stage.

[Joseph Salesi]

I look for a teacher who teaches the style that I'm interested in and also prefers the type of instrument that I want to play. But most importantly, someone who has a good method of teaching that can help take me from novice to advanced in a reasonable amount of time (given that I practice every day).

[Paul Russell]

I look for a teacher who teaches the style that I'm interested in and also prefers the type of instrument that I want to play. But most importantly, someone who has a good method of teaching that can help take me from novice to advanced in a reasonable amount of time (given that I practice every day).

But where can someone find a teacher? There doesn't appear to be anyone in my area that teaches lap steel.

[Roger Prigmore]

Hopefully, without a long dissertation I would suggest that [good] teachers must have the skills to identify a number of factors involving the [new] student to music application of any kind. While music may well be "universal" at a number of levels, motive for learning and modality for learning become rather [individual] and somewhat subjective.

So what does all that mean?

It simplistically means that [all] humans can be drawn to a common denominator but from totally different motives, perspectives and abilities. Music seemingly is one of those common demoninators among the human species. However, there is a predominate barrier between the enjoyment of music and the learning and applications of music.

Basically, humans are neurologicaly [wired] from two basic schematics....artistic versus analytical, followed by a host of correlating factors. Yes, the two can correlate together harmoneously....and that is the [perfect] student you would be looking for. However, for most, that direct correlation is not present. So as an effective teacher you would have to first discover if you may proceed from only one or both perspectives.....in addition to potentioal neurolgical [cordination] issues of the two.

Most [new] students will come to you suffering from one or both of the aforementioned problems. Most will come to you with the predesposed motive of learning songs to play over that of learning music theory.

So, it is my opinion that teachers of [new] students should start by teaching simple TAB and songs to evaluate where their students are and what teaching modality is going to be best. Questions posed by the student in this process will rapidily help you discover their wiring set and abilities...as well as their movtives. Likewise, this method is of great benefit to those new students who choose to start by a "self-learning" method. In either situation the student must soon feel and see some motive based accomplishment or they run the risk of being lost...possibly forever.

For those with coordination problems of the right and left side, they too can progress and suceed simply by being motivated to pursue their learning and accomplishment by rote....a few bars and cords at a time of maybe one of their favorite songs. The worst student you can have is one who is a child being [made] to learn something by others motives.

I could only play one song for months....over and over....over, happy, happy...happy each time I played I for myself or someone.

[George Van Wagner]

My experience has been that the best performers are, generally, not good teachers. There are exceptions, but that are exactly that - exceptions.

A successfully established performer will also, most likely, have developed an individual style, and what they will be most inclined to teach is based on their personal style. A good teacher, on the other hand, will help the intermediate to advanced player find and develop their own style.

Learning vocabulary (songs and licks) without grammar (theory) leads to pattern-based 'same as everybody else' playing. Songs are important, but so is understanding of structure and how to approach a new set of chord changes. A good instructor will balance the two.

I've been playing guitar since 1967 including a lot of slide, mostly in standard tuning. I recently started working on figuring out how to play my early '50s Dual Pro 8-string. There's nobody out there teaching what I want to learn (playing post-modern groove jazz on lap steel), at least that I've been able to find. Most of the materials I've seen concentrate on a traditional repertoire and harmonic concept. Traditional tunings are aimed more at swing-based major tonality and feel, as are the teaching materials I've seen. Even the Leavitt materials I've seen are aimed more at the American Standard songbook (not that there's anything wrong with that approach, that repertoire, or that tradition. It's just not where my ear is). What I need from an instructor is mechanical basics (blocking, pick mutes, slants, picking exercises, etc.), and some assistance in applying my harmonic concepts to an 8-string non-pedal steel, not somebody teaching how to play "Steel Guitar Rag". Where's the instructional material that uses songs like "Freedom Jazz Dance" or Zawinul's "Brown Street" as a foundation? Where's the course on applying quartal harmony to lap steel?

[Joseph Salesi]

I look for a teacher who teaches the style that I'm interested in and also prefers the type of instrument that I want to play. But most importantly, someone who has a good method of teaching that can help take me from novice to advanced in a reasonable amount of time (given that I practice every day).

But where can someone find a teacher? There doesn't appear to be anyone in my area that teaches lap steel.

This also applies to instructional material such as books and DVDs. Also, you can find live instructors who use Skype for remote students. Skype has great video conferencing capabilities.

For other instruments I've learned in the past, I try to find the best written books and or DVDs first (1 or 2), and then after I complete them, I look for a real instructor that lives close by. But these days, you can find one that uses video conferencing.

[Bill Leff]

I've been playing guitar since 1967 including a lot of slide, mostly in standard tuning. I recently started working on figuring out how to play my early '50s Dual Pro 8-string. There's nobody out there teaching what I want to learn (playing post-modern groove jazz on lap steel), at least that I've been able to find. Most of the materials I've seen concentrate on a traditional repertoire and harmonic concept. Traditional tunings are aimed more at swing-based major tonality and feel, as are the teaching materials I've seen. Even the Leavitt materials I've seen are aimed more at the American Standard songbook (not that there's anything wrong with that approach, that repertoire, or that tradition. It's just not where my ear is). What I need from an instructor is mechanical basics (blocking, pick mutes, slants, picking exercises, etc.), and some assistance in applying my harmonic concepts to an 8-string non-pedal steel, not somebody teaching how to play "Steel Guitar Rag". Where's the instructional material that uses songs like "Freedom Jazz Dance" or Zawinul's "Brown Street" as a foundation? Where's the course on applying quartal harmony to lap steel?

With respect, you are going to have to "go to where no man has gone before" if you're going to try to play McCoy Tyner and Cecil Taylor stuff on steel (as far as I know). But don't forget, those guys learned to play over standards before they ventured "outside" first. Sun Ra evolved from Fletcher Henderson.

My point? You might want to learn "Steel Guitar Rag" prior to diving into "Freedom Jazz Dance" (love that tune by the way).

[George Van Wagner]

With respect, you are going to have to "go to where no man has gone before" if you're going to try to play McCoy Tyner and Cecil Taylor stuff on steel (as far as I know). But don't forget, those guys learned to play over standards before they ventured "outside" first. Sun Ra evolved from Fletcher Henderson.

My point? You might want to learn "Steel Guitar Rag" prior to diving into "Freedom Jazz Dance" (love that tune by the way).

Well, I've got most of the theory as it applies to regular guitar and can usually manage to negotiate my way over changes (thought there's always room for improvement and I'm nowhere near being able to solo over Giant Steps at 250 bpm, for example). Since I'm unlikely to be using C6 for the music that's in my heard (wrong kinds of chord voicings), learning songs in that tuning would seem like possibily not the best jumping off place.

Quartal harmony is pretty easy in standard tuning on guitar, since you've essentially got all those fourths pre-stacked and waiting. The last couple of lessons I had with Ted Greene just before he passed away we were working on quartal stuff. It's figuring out an appropriate tuning for steel and transferring what I know to that which seems the biggest challenge.

[Mike Neer]

George, you certainly wouldn't be the first to want to play Jazz on the steel. When I bought my first lap steel (pre-internet), I didn't have a clue as to what players did tuning-wise, etc. I started creating my own tunings in an effort to accomplish what you are talking about. I am also a guitarist who studied for a time and have a pretty thorough knowledge of Jazz harmony, etc.

Anyway, after a few years of this, I still felt I'd gotten nowhere. I realized that the lap steel was never going to be the guitar. After all, it's like playing with one finger. I had to rethink my approach.

I think the most important step for me was when I decided to stop fighting it and to seek out more traditional styles in an effort to learn to play better. I got into old time Jazz and Hawaiian music for a while and got some technique. Then, I started transcribing all of the classic steel performances that I love from players like Buddy Emmons, Jimmy Day, Lloyd Green, Speedy West, Vance Terry, Joaquin Murphey, etc. in an effort to understand how they approach the steel. I didn't want to play it like a guitarist anymore.

That's my perspective, yours may be different. I'm at a place now where I can be pretty comfortable playing in a wide variety of styles, including modern Jazz, although I don't do it enough.