"Looking" For Tone In The Wrong Places?

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 22 Oct 2009 12:20 pm

Yes Reece, I am saying publicly that the consruction design of a Zum Hybrid and a Fulawka make them sound inherently different. Skip, skip, skip, skip....
Reece, will you please change that record.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 22 Oct 2009 12:40 pm

For the record, I had no problem identifying the Emmons from the four MSAs in the listening test. I identified it by color so as not to poison the pool. I couldn't identify the different models of MSA, but the Emmons push-pull was clearly different from the others to my ears.

Of my own guitars, I can tell the difference when I record direct. If I'm using an amp, I tend to set it for a certain sound so the difference between guitars isn't really so noticeable. With an amp it's easier for me to hear the difference between speakers than the difference between guitars. Hemp cones sound best!

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 22 Oct 2009 12:48 pm

Agreed Bob. Also, about the Hempcones.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 23 Oct 2009 3:54 am

Out of the many thousands of steel players all over the world who have been following this thread for months, we now have two who claim they can consistently identify an inherent tone. b0b and Kevin Hatton. In addition they have also narrowed it down for us to three brands of guitars.

In accordance to their comments….. it is assumed they are saying they can consistently identify an inherent tone which is name brand specific. To validate their claim it's only fair that they would be cooperative and even anxious to demonstrate an ability that apparently places them in a very small minority.

For clearification purposes …..”Consistent”…. meaning you get it right every time. “Inherent”…. meaning essence of a thing, which in this instance is a specific brand of steel guitar, and…. “tone” being that which is claimed to be heard without a visual advantage.

I have previously provided the comparison evaluation procedures that are both fair and unbiased. So the stage is yours gentlemen and I’ll be watching and waiting for your post on this thread of specific procedures used, those in attendance and evaluation results, as will I’m sure many others.

In addition, if either or both will inform us on this thread as to where and when their evaluation is to take place, I will do my best to be in attendance and possibly other forum members as well.

If they are successful I’ll be the first to congratulate them, if they fail, I’ll still be the first to congratulate them and thank them for trying.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 23 Oct 2009 5:11 am

Out of the many thousands of steel players all over the world who have been following this thread for months

Name them

To validate their claim it's only fair that they would be cooperative and even anxious to demonstrate an ability that apparently places them in a very small minority.

Here we go again - Reece twisting his way out of HIS claims. While he's never proven his oft-spouted notion that what b0b and Kevin claim to be able to do can't be done. he says "to be fair" THEY have to prove THEIR listening abilities.

The burden of proof is on whoever makes the initial claim. To be fair, Reece needs to prove it can't be done - so Reece, name the time and place and arrange to fly in the "many thousands of steel players" so you can prove your point.

If proven - THEN you'd be in a position to ask for proof from others. You'd probably even be "cooperative and anxious to demonstrate" your inability.

Jeez, this is a riot.I love reading the comics with my morning coffee.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 23 Oct 2009 6:59 am

Jim S.....What do you mean name them....look at the thousands who have been watching this thread and see some of the names for yourself. If you want names not participating you'll have to ask b0b.

As much as you would like to believe it, I'm not twisting anything, I think it's totally fair when considering that which was demonstrated here many years ago and since then as well. Those who have an opposing opinion can show up here about anytime and we'll have at it, just as I will try to do when either b0b or Kevin Hatton conduct their comparison evaluation. What could be more fair than that, and in addition I have even said I would take their word for their conclusion until proven otherwise, which is something you and other nay-sayers have ever said..

You surely remember I once offered to come to California if you would accept the comparison evaluation and you declined.

Enjoy your morning coffee and if you find a comic strip you don't like, you might consider not reading it.

Steve Waltz · Post by **Steve Waltz** » 23 Oct 2009 9:32 am

It does seem to make more sense that the people that have suggested that they can identify a particular guitar would be the proper ones to do a test. If Reece brought in random people to do a test and they couldn't identify a particular guitar, they would be accoused of being people that couldn't ID a particular guitar due to cardboard ears or some other accusation.

If one out of 1000 people could hear a dog whistle, why would you test a sample of people that didn't think they could hear the whistle to prove that the ones that can, can't?

I'm not sure what kind of test would suffice for some. I know there are all kinds of variables but why not just set up your own basic test. It's not that hard to do. Don't turn it into rocket science. If you do then maybe there's too much talking and not enough walking going on here.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 23 Oct 2009 9:53 am

Reece Anderson wrote:Out of the many thousands of steel players all over the world who have been following this thread for months, we now have two who claim they can consistently identify an inherent tone. b0b and Kevin Hatton. In addition they have also narrowed it down for us to three brands of guitars.

In accordance to their comments….. it is assumed they are saying they can consistently identify an inherent tone which is name brand specific. To validate their claim it's only fair that they would be cooperative and even anxious to demonstrate an ability that apparently places them in a very small minority.

You're assumption is wrong, Reece. I said that I could identify the Emmons push-pull when compared to 4 different MSAs in the recent challenge. I never claimed to be able to "consistently identify an inherent tone which is name brand specific".

In the test, it was known that 4 of the guitars were MSAs and one was an Emmons push-pull. If there were 5 different brands of guitars I might have been fooled. I'd be happy to participate in further testing, but I'm not making any claim of consistency or infallibility. Bring on the MP3's!

I can consistently identify my own guitars in dry, direct recordings. But that has nothing to do with name brands - it's about being intimately familiar with my own instruments.

And for the record, no scientific study has ever disproved my contention that black guitars sound best.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 23 Oct 2009 10:07 am

b0b wrote:I will confess to tone envy every time I hear an Emmons push-pull through a Fender Twin Reverb. It doesn't matter if the player is good or bad. It never made me want to own that equipment, though. Too heavy, too tempermental, too inflexible.

I believe that combination is unique, and that I could identify it blindfolded. Prove me wrong, Reece!

I guess I have to back-pedal a bit. I did write the above. If someone is getting that specific sound with a different guitar and amp, I'd like to know what they're using. I do stand by the statement in general, though.

Jimmie Martin · Post by **Jimmie Martin** » 23 Oct 2009 10:19 am

How many times is this subject going to be going to be gone over and over and over etc. This isn't the first time. Same author though.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 23 Oct 2009 10:22 am

b0b.....Thank you for the clearification.

That narrows it down to only Kevin Hatton and the two guitars he mentioned.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 23 Oct 2009 11:08 am

You(r)'re assumption is wrong, Reece. -Some Innocent Goofball-

That's how these things turn into 22 page insult, denigration, and condescention excersizes.

Who wins?

Probably those that realise what the picture is:

Somebody that doesn't accept other people's opinions.

What happens when they have lofty acclaim attached to them. Deserved or not.

At least when I disagreed with Paul Franklin on how to tune a Steel Guitar, he finally let it go by by agreeing that I'd probably never be playing with Shania Twain.. ( just kidding Paul...)

I have been accused of "siding with Jim Sliff".

I don't even know him. Nor do I know his importance, number of Halls of Fame he belongs to, or anything else about him. All the knowledge he has posted about numerous subjects has always seemed to be correct, and is not put out with overassuming airs. Recently I posited that "old Fender amps" were not any better made then the newer ones, and he corrected/disagreed with me with a minimum of denigration or condescention. Not 22 pages of baiting nonsense.

In closing, I hope my time here has not hurt anyone's feelings, career, or looked like I was trying to "steal anyone's spotlight" on "the world stage" as Reece put it once.

I've just been thankful to record my experiences over thirty years, my observations, and share a laugh, and a tear or two with people that otherwise I'd have just had to see at my gigs.

I don't disagree with people unless I think they're wrong. I apologise when I find I have been, and I let people go with I see that all they want is an argument.

Sometmes it takes a while, and it's always depended on how much time I have.

Longview Eagles Sat night.

Be there, or like they say,

be square..

EJL

admin · Post by **b0b** » 23 Oct 2009 11:17 am

You(r)'re assumption is wrong, Reece. -Some Innocent Goofball-

Eric West wrote:That's how these things turn into 22 page insult, denigration, and condescention[sig] exersizes[sig]*.

No disrespect was intended, and I doubt that any was taken. Let's not make a fight where none exists. Reece and I are friends. There's no animosity here.

*[sig] = some innocent goofball's spelling error (good one, Eric)

admin · Post by **b0b** » 23 Oct 2009 11:28 am

Reece Anderson wrote:b0b.....Thank you for the clearification.

That narrows it down to only Kevin Hatton and the two guitars he mentioned.

I'm still up to the challenge, if you can provide the test. To me, there's no doubt that my Desert Rose has an inherent tone that's different from my Williams, for example. They aren't even close, and I could teach an average listener to hear the difference. I might not be able to tell the difference between brands on mastered recordings, but the difference in the dry direct tone of these two specific instruments is pretty stark.

"Dry and direct" is the key here. Otherwise, you're hearing distractions: reverb, echo, EQ, amp, speakers, studio compression, etc. When talking about the inherent tone of guitars, it's best to remove everything else that audibly colors the sound from the mix. Only then can you be sure that what you're hearing is the guitar, and not an artifact of how the guitar interacts with some other component of the system.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 23 Oct 2009 12:57 pm

B0b….Just for the record, there was absolutely no disrespect taken.

Next time I visit my dear friend Jim Palenscar at his steel guitar store in Oceanside I’ll let you know and hopefully we can get together for a comparison evaluation.

I believe all mainstream steel guitars have the ability to interact positively with sound enhancement and good amps, and together they produce an acceptable tone which is the bottom line for most everyone.

I have to wonder why you feel “dry and direct” to be the key, when steel guitar is almost never heard dry and direct.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 23 Oct 2009 1:01 pm

I'm still up to the challenge, if you can provide the test. To me, there's no doubt that my Desert Rose has an inherent tone that's different from my Williams, (clipped the yada yada...)Only then can you be sure that what you're hearing is the guitar, and not an artifact of how the guitar interacts with some other component of the system.-The Next Victim-

Don't forget how it looks..

No b0b, I don't think you are going to be able to disagree with Reece with any better results than any of the rest of us. You're in about to your elbows.

Just a word to an affable and well intentioned host and erstwhile mediator.

Better to just let Jim, Jimmy, or me get out here with the bell in our trembling hands... Just hang back and keep things running.

I need an "ALRF"* Auto alert to know when you finally blow a gasket...

EJL

*Angry Little Red Face

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 23 Oct 2009 1:08 pm

Alas for my beautiful logic, laying trampled on the floor, unseen, unloved, unmourned...

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 23 Oct 2009 1:14 pm

But certainly not "unmounted"...

Hehehehehehe

EJL

Jack Dougherty · Post by **Jack Dougherty** » 23 Oct 2009 1:31 pm

"Holy rusty steel strings Batman!!!"

How did I miss 22 pages of this?
Throwing my hat in the ring, which by now would encompass Saturn, every one of my guitars sounded great.
All different but great. On any given day I might be able to tell the difference. Since I have no dog in this spirited debate I can admit to failing the MP3 test. So what does that mean? Don't know....I got nothin'. Question? Will any of this make us play better? (or should I start a new thread?)
I think we should all meet in a great hall and sort the whole thing out over multiable kegs of beer.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 23 Oct 2009 1:40 pm

Reece Anderson wrote:Next time I visit my dear friend Jim Palenscar at his steel guitar store in Oceanside I’ll let you know and hopefully we can get together for a comparison evaluation.

Yeah, it's only an 11 hour drive. What the heck.

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 23 Oct 2009 1:40 pm

Eric West wrote:But certainly not "unmounted"...

Hehehehehehe

EJL

That's good

Jack Dougherty · Post by **Jack Dougherty** » 23 Oct 2009 1:49 pm

Works for me Georg!

Jimmie Martin · Post by **Jimmie Martin** » 23 Oct 2009 2:30 pm

My question is will this help the sales of certain guitars over other guitars? This test that is. That is the motive isn't it?