ZB Pedal Steel Guitars - Please help!

[Stan Schober]

Duncan,I must admit that I have been looking at that very instrument since it was posted, but I'm not sure that I have the resolve to tackle it , after reading the illustrious Mr. Sliff's last few posts here...

[Chuck McGill]

Duncan my friend you allways come up with a cherry.
Ben's scranton and this single neck 11 will be great
guitars for someone. How's the fishin?

[Duncan Hodge]

Hi Chuck,
Yes, they are two really great ZBs for someone man enough to lift them (at least Ben's ZB). You know, the ZB community is becoming (or has become???) a very inbred situation that someday may become the envy of some of the particular areas of the country that are associated with inbreeding (my political correctness does not allow me to name any specific area so we will just have to use our collective imaginations). Here we have Ben selling a ZB that was formerly owned by Andrew B. who formerly owned a ZB that I had sold, passing through about 2-3 owners on its way to Andrew and I ended up buying back a couple of years later. Now I am looking upon Andrews former, and Ben's current, ZB with warm affection and desire. And then there is the situation with Joe and my former ZB, that I don't even want to get into for fear of crying. Sometimes a guy just wishes he stayed with Brand X, at least as far as pedal steels are concerned. Brand X doesn't sound as good, but at least you don't get too attached.
In any event, Chuck...I was writing to Chuck before the rant overtook me, wasn't I...anyway, Chuck, it has actually been too hot to fish lately, but I have the minnow trap out on the dock and if I end up with some bait I may try tonight. Have a beautiful day in Tennessee.
Duncan

[Bobby Burns]

Duncan, I know you only from your posts on this forum, but it is clear to me that you are a very sick man. I hope you can see that I mean this in the most kind and helpful way. If it will help to ease your illness, feel free to send your ZB, to my house, and I will dispose of it properly, and it will never be around to bother you anymore. Then you can spend your time more productively with other activities, such as basket weaving, stamp collecting, watching Game Show Network, and such.

[Duncan Hodge]

Hello Bobby,
I'm glad to hear that my being a "sick man", and all, does not get in the way of your being kind and helpful to me. It makes my heart soar like a hawk. I appreciate your offer to take my ZB off my hands and give it a good home in Tennessee. The only problem with that is that I would then have to start pestering you to let me buy it back. It only worked with Andrew in MD, and not a certain unnamed gentelman in Southern California. I do suggest that you try a ZB out if you haven't, they truly sound unique and beautiful "straight out of the box" with minimal effects. And I did receive your post with good humor and understood the spirit that it was sent.
HOWEVER, you actually substantiated my previous thoughts on the inbredness of ZB owners. You see, My middle name is Burns, (From a long line of pig farmers from Maryland, who may actually be able to spell ZB with one, or two hints). Now one Burns, namely you, is coveting another Burns's ZB, namely me. See what I was getting at? When you follow the logic of it all it gets pretty scary.
Like I wished my good friend Chuck in Tennessee, you have a great rest of the day in Tennessee.
Duncan

[Chuck McGill]

Duncan your a hoot. Good night back to you my friend.

[Brendan Mitchell]

Did someone here pick up that S11 on ebay ?

[Joe A. Camacho]

Duncan, how could you let this one go? How long have I owned it for now?

[Duncan Hodge]

Arrrrgggghhhh!!! Now you've gone and done it Joe. I'm gonna go back and delete all those nice things I said about you on Justin's post in the for sale section.
I believe that you have owned it for about two years, nine months and 28, or 29 days by my figuring, but who's counting. Anyway, red ones sound better and mine's lighter and has been to the beach so nanny nanny boo boo to you.

[Russ Tkac]

Arrrrgggghhhh!!! nanny nanny boo boo to you.

Duncan,

You have to get hold of yourself. b0b doesn't like name calling on the forum. You should have bought that S-11 on eBay. I seem to remember you looking for one a year or so ago.

[Duncan Hodge]

I'm sorry Russ, my friend, my temper and language have always been my downfall. Yes, I was extreme in my comments to Joe, especially with using the N-N-B-B. It's just that he keeps taunting me with his stupid ZB and makes me feel like a failure for selling it to him.
In the future I will try and conduct myself as a better man.
Duncan

[Russ Tkac]

I sold my ZB. I miss it.

[Paul Frank Bloomfield]

Duncan, my friend !
I can't wait to meet up with Marci and you next year.
I mean one idiot on Corfu is bad enough but TWO ? I
know where the city pokey is so we won't be too far away from town, actually it will be three idiots, I
forgot Bob Adams and the lovely Olly will be here as well, Corfu won't know what's hit it !
All the best
Lin and Frank. Corfu

[Jim Sliff]

I'm home for a week while my wife is recuperating from back surgery (she's fine, BTW...couple rocky days at first but she's MUCH better now).

The ZB my drummer bought for me to play (not understanding ANYTHING I tried to teach him about my 8-string Fenders and Sneaky Pete's copedent) has been sitting on the workbench for months. It was a boat anchor when I got it, but after a tone of work (and lots of help here) I got at least the E9 neck working.

But there was no way I was going to be able to use it in the usual E9/C6 arrangement - I don't play either copedent. I got E9 working only because the parts were there and I needed to basically clean it (degrease and disinfect it is more like it!) and I figured other guys could play it if I kept that on there.

I have B6 of my 10-string GFI Ultra - but using 3 pedals and 4 knees. On the ZB I'd have to start with pedal 4, and the left knees would be nonexistent because of my foot position.

Well - yesterday I said "screw it" - I knew I was short ONE turnbuckle and rod for the one knee lever I could conveniently "borrow", but I'd try to hook up the rest and do that later.

Now - it took me 5 or 6 hours to set TWO pulls on the E9 neck, battling with all the ZB's quirks.

So there is no way I can explain how I dismantled all the C6 mass of tangled gadgetry, figured out how to use some parts the "wrong" way to make it work, on a whim wrapped some safety wire through the 1st string lower hole and a wing bolt I stuck in a spare hole on the knee lever shaft...

....and had the whole mess reassembled, strung up, adjusted and tuned in 3 1/2 hours.

Not only that - but my wire "rod" for the knee lever somehow fell into place so perfectly I get a "feel" stop - which gave me the #6 pedal 1st string change from my Fender 400 setup that I use so often (and thought I'd have to give up or figure out later.

The split between the 7 and 8 pedals is right on the money as well.

The only things missing are the pedal 5 lower (which I rarely use) and the RKR changes, which I can do without (I might throw those on RKL eventually.).

I basically hooked it all up, guessed at the right holes for everything, threw arts at turnbuckle tension - put strings on it, tuned it and set the pulls. Not one adjustment needed - everything pulls evenly.

Talk about a lucky streak...might need to buy a lotto ticket!

FWIW it also sounds incredible - the lower B6 tuning with the ZB pickup sounds like cannon fire. To me, it sounds like a REALLY mean and nasty Les Paul with P-90 pickups.

Copedent:

(there's one change from the chart- pedal #7 also raises the 7th string a full step)

First a "before; then some "after" shots:

[Bob Hamilton]

Good job Jim. This is how it starts, there's no going back now. Try running that guitar through a Twin or a Vibrosonic or Webb, you'll never be the same.....

[b0b]

Hey Jim, if I lowered my D6/G 8 string copedent down to B, it has the same intervals and most of the same changes on the top 7 strings:
[tab] P1 P2 LR RL LV
D# +E
B ++C# -A#
G# +A
F# ++G#
D# +E
B ++C#
G# --F# +A
E[/tab]
Isn't that interesting?

[Dave Zirbel]

Now you see why Brumley traded in the Fender for a ZB!

[Bob Hamilton]

And then bought the company. Dave, give me a call next time you're coming through, I'd like you to give the 12 string a test run if you have the time. Thanks, BH

[Dave Zirbel]

Could be soon Bob. I owe the parents a visit!

[Jim Sliff]

Now you see why Brumley traded in the Fender for a ZB

Honestly - no.

I guess I see why it would work for E9 guys, and it'll be fun to screw around with in B6 - but it's at an odd sitting position, I can't do anything with the two left knee levers, and (even though I got REAL lucky yesterday setting it up) it's a nightmare to work on. I still have absolutely no idea how the "spoke" ends are made that fit the fingers - I have tap/die sets and can make turnbuckles, but they do me NO good without a way to make those weird ends.

That's why I wrapped safety wire around the bolt and crossed my fingers. That's an important change for me and I had no other way to get it.

I would like to find the rod that goes to the finger (and the other parts if possible )for that jerry-rigged lower. And RKL would work fine for a 2nd string full-step raise and 4th string F# to A raise....but again, I still have found no source for those rod ends and only hints about making them (heat and hammering them flat isn't much help - they's have to be in some kind of hole or something to smash them into shape - and the heat would screw up the other metal. right?

Did I get lucky getting it to work? Yes. Does it sound good? Yes. Was the whole project a major pain in the backside? YES! Would I work on one again? NO!

Ok, now a few setup questions -

1. With my height conversion setup the pedals stick straight out, and at the *top* of the pedal are +/- 3" from the floor. FAR more than my Fenders but just little higher than my GFI. Is there any kind of "standard"?

2. I don't know why, but only on this guitar do my feet slip off the pedals at the left side. And not that it happens more at these spots, but the pedal; spacing is wider between 3&4 and 5&6 than others. ISs something wrong, or do I need to get used to it (or....please, lord....have him develop a sudden need to sell it!!!!).?

Excellent pickups and great sound for a "normal" steel. Just not my cup of tea, I don't think.

b0b, that is interesting about the copedent. Had you noticed that before when we had discussed Sneaky's copedent? I seem to recall some talk about similarities but that you had transposed them up a bit.

This copedent is actually a modification of the 10-string copedent I use on my GFI Ultra S-10, as worked out by Ed Bierly with a couple suggestions from Paul Redmond and one addition of my own. To get all the changes I really need I will have to add the "Sneaky" RKR to my RKL; the only thing I can't seem to figure out is a way to get Sneaky's pedal 5 change (that would combine with the feel-stop on RKR for a diminished chord...but really only if I also added the half-step lower to string 4 as well).

[b0b]

b0b, that is interesting about the copedent. Had you noticed that before when we had discussed Sneaky's copedent? I seem to recall some talk about similarities but that you had transposed them up a bit.

Of course, I've studied Sneaky's copedent from all angles, and the decision to tune down from E to D was predicated, in part, by his success playing country sounds on a lower tuning. I just can't bring myself to tune all the way down to B6th. Even the standard C6th is lower than my preference.

Back to topic - how are you tuning splits on the ZB? I didn't think it had that capability.

[Kevin Hatton]

Bob, typically, tunable splits are not available on the origanl mechanics. There are ways to jury rig a couple of them. On my new guitars they are available as part of the double, double bell crank system. Jim, you can see why we upgraded the mechanics. The originals are not easy.

[Jim Sliff]

Sheer dumb luck.

Sometimes it helps to NOT know what an instrument is incapable of doing (after being told by countless players that a double-raise or lower was not possible on a Fender 400 or 1000 I rigged the anyway, and they work fine.

I didn't "tune" the split - it was just there when I was done.Got it tuned up, was screwing around and accidentally pressed 7 and 8 at the same time ( the pedal spacing is still really weird to me, and the wider spacing at some points complicates matters) - I don't have perfect pitch but the note sounded "right" - so I looked at my strobe and it was sitting still on "C".

I never found a source for those spoke-like rod ends, and no one had a reasonably detailed method for making them; I really use the 1st string lower a lot - I figured I was screwed on the half-step lower, but the full-step is more important to me - so not having parts I decided to wrap some safety wire through the front hole on the lower finger, wrap it a couple times around a bolt and wing nut already in place on the RKR shaft - and darned if it didn't get my down to C3 with just a little tuning adjustment.

Then, in another accident, I tried RKR and felt a "speed bump". And the "speed bump was dead-on my half-step lowerI needed to replace my pedal #6. So just for fun, I tried it with the 5th pedal - and ended up in exactly the same place.

"Tunable splits"? I dunno - but they DO exist.

So I'll just be happy and ignorant, disregarding the fact that it can't be done.

[Paul Frank Bloomfield]

This is about the only time I'll ever be seen with
two ZB's unless I win the Greek lottery which gives
me more chance of going to the moon !
The blue D-10 is , as we speak, on it's way back to the UK to my good friend Bob Adams......Ah well !
All the best guys from sunny, warm Corfu
Frank. Corfu

[Jim Sliff]

Arg!

Help -

My bailing-wire rigged knee lever pull on my B6 neck slipped off while I was doing some other fine-tuning and will NOT allow itself to be recreated. This kills BOTH my full step lower AND the happy discovery of an unintended "feel stop" that was actually pretty critical.

I've asked this a bunch of times - does anyone have a short changer-end rod (the flared end part)...or even a long one, as I can cut/thread it. I can make the other rod piece that goes to the knee lever, and found a bunch of 4-40 couplings I can drill/tap for turnbuckles...but I just have no clue how to create that weird flared end (and I doubt I have the tools for it - it looks like both the bend and flare would require heavy-duty stuff I don't have.