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Topic: Question about a 1959 Supro Console lap steel |
Walter Seaman
From:
Iowa, USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2009 7:22 am |
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Hi everyone,
I bought a 1959 Supro console on Ebay and it's very nice but there are some challenges I've had with it: at first the G and D strings were barely audible through the pickup. After I adjusted the pickup poles so they would be closer to the strings(as suggested by the seller) they did become audible at reasonable levels.
A funny thing about the Supro is that is seems rather quiet compared to my cheap Morrell 6-string lapsteel (the 'basic' model which costs around $160). When I have my amp set at a fixed volume and play the Supro, then play the Morrell, the Morell is signficantly louder (although maybe the tone is not as nice). If I plug in my electric guitar (Fender Strat) at the same amp settings it's loud too. Only the Supro seems quieter. I would estimate the Supro is something like 10 to 20 percent quieter than the Morrell and the Fender.
Has anyone else had this experience of having a vintage Supro which seems 'restrained' in its volume output at given amp level?
Thanks for your help! |
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Andy Sandoval
From:
Bakersfield, California, USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2009 7:40 am
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| Sounds like the magnets might be a little weak. |
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Walter Seaman
From:
Iowa, USA
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Posted 5 Oct 2009 6:27 pm
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| Is this fixable or do you need to get new magnets? Or maybe a new pick up? |
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Richard Sevigny
From:
Salmon Arm, BC, Canada
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Posted 5 Oct 2009 6:50 pm
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Forumite Rick Aiello used to make replacement magnets, but I beleive he's gotten out of the business.
Jason Lollar makes replacement pickups. Perhaps he can also provide replacement magnets.
Edited to add: I see Lollar also recharges the old Valco magnets for $40!
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If at first the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it.
-Albert Einstein |
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2009 12:42 pm
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Walter,
Wish I had time to expound here, but I don't except briefly:
When you say "G and D" strings; If you mean 3rd and 4th strings of a 6 string Steel, ...then: If each pickup pole piece will balance out the volume level between all strings (even though the overall volume is low), then the chances are real good that your problem is either weak magnet(s) or a wiring problem; BECAUSE the pickup guts is actually 2 separate 3-string pickups (strings 1,2,3 and 4,5,6) wired together, ....making an equal problem in both pickups that balance out VERY improbable odds; And intuition suggesting the problem is magnet(s) or wiring.
There is a thread with a lot of good info about your question asked by someone else about 8 months ago if I remember correctly. Search "valco weak pickup turner aiello" and it should come up.
In the meantime here's some links to the repair I did and documented that I linked in that previous discussion; Hope this might help; A good look into Valco Steels guts, anyway:
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One weak magnet in combo with a wood-or-metal faux magnet on other end of pickup, OR;
2 weak magnets. = Recharge magnets on the back of a large speaker.
1 of 2 magnets installed with N/S pole opposite it's partner magnet. = They should both have either but the same mangetic polarity facing up & down.
For some a-bit more involved stuff, see:
Pole screws threads cut into their tunnels insulation, shorting coil wire when screws are installed:
http://www.dennysguitars.com/ValcoElGrande18.html
And:
http://www.dennysguitars.com/ValcoElGrande19.html.
For additional electronics info: See electronics sections on this Valco steel repair's index page:
http://www.dennysguitars.com/ValcoElGrandeSiteMap.html
_________________
Aloha,
Denny T~
http://www.dennysguitars.com/
Please help support humanity:
http://www.redcross.org/en/aboutus |
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Walter Seaman
From:
Iowa, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2009 4:02 pm
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Something good but very odd happened with the Supro. After reading the posts (thanks they are very informative) I took off the top metal cover for the pickup. I mean the highest one, which sits about an inch off the body of the Supro, held in by two machine and two wood screws. It has the holes in it through which you can adjust the pickup pole screw heights.
The 'clamps' that hold that top plate are magnetic little horse-shoe type pieces of metal. Those are definitely not the magnets inside the pickup itself-the magnets near the wiring.
There is a second plate under the one I removed. The second plate is closer to the body of the lap steel. I couldn't get that up without a bunch more work so I decided for now to just put the top plate back on and play a bit (and look into really taking the steel apart on the weekend).
When I reassembled it, it was as loud or louder than my other instruments! I can't understand why b/c I didn't do anything related to the wiring of the pickup-no wire or 'inner magnet' adjustments. But I feel like I shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth! The loudness was 'still' there later and the next day. Perhaps something got 'jostled' loose when the steel was shipped and I 'unjostled' it when I took off that top plate.
It's weird but it seems to be working fine now! If anyone has an explanation for why this would happen I'd love to hear it!
Thanks,
WS |
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2009 4:36 am
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Walter,
You should find plenty answers and info in the references in my previous posting; But briefly:
Here is a page with the pickup before being disassembled, cleaned up and repaired, ....with all the expternal parts marked / labeled:
http://www.dennysguitars.com/ValcoElGrande2.html
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| Quote: |
| "The 'clamps' that hold that top plate are magnetic little horse-shoe type pieces of metal. Those are definitely not the magnets inside the pickup itself-the magnets near the wiring." |
Those "little horse-shoe type pieces of (magnetic) metal" you mentioned ARE the pickup's magnets; There are no other magnets in the pickup. Here is what Valco magnets and their faux dummy magnets look like (top to bottom: faux wood slug, faux metal slug, and 2 real magnets; Notice the squared slots in the faux slugs and the rounded slots in the real magnets.)
As a sidenote; Strangely the whole electronic-mounting / bridge plate (shown below) can become a bit magnetized from the magnets sitting on that plate for a long time, ...and the pickup will actually work weakly via the magnetized plate even with the magnets removed; But that is an "anomaly' and not part of the pickups designed / normal operation.
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| "There is a second plate under the one I removed. The second plate is closer to the body of the lap steel. ....... I decided for now to just put the top plate back on and play a bit..." |
OK, ....so let's remove the cover / magnetic-bridgeway plate and magnets:
That lower plate you mentioned is the cover over the 2 coils and 6 pole pieces. I see no need for you to go into the cover / coils / pole pieces guts if all is working well; I sure wouldn't unless there was a need; Lots of very delicate wires in there. Pics below are what the guts look like. The pole pieces screw into threaded holes in the electronics / bridge plate; And they screw in much better from the underside, especially if the cover & coils are installed. The pole pieces extend up through plastic tunnels through the coils when the coil, cover plate and pole pieces are all installed. Here's a link to what the innards look like:
http://www.dennysguitars.com/ValcoElGrande8.html
And:
BOTTOMS UP:
And TOPS UP / Installed:
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| "If anyone has an explanation for why this would happen I'd love to hear it!" |
You very well could have jostled a bad connection into being good. Or as said in my previous posting, you might have had 1 of 2 magnets installed with it's magnet's N/S pole opposite it's partner magnet (ie. N/S-------S/N); And when reassembling it you might have placed them in correct orientation of both having the same mangetic polarity facing up & down (N/S-------N/S, or S/N-------S/N).
Another suggestion: With the electronics / bridge plate flat surfaces facing generally East-West, ...then put a joe-cheapo magnetic compass (walmart camping section has them) close to the top face of the electronic / bridge plate. If North on the compass points to the top of the plate, then install both of the magnet(s) with SOUTH DOWN and North up. If the South needle on the compass points to the top of the plate then install both the magnet(s) NORTH DOWN / South up. The little bit of magnetic "charge" in the electronics / bridge plate (if any) can make a noticeable good difference in the pickup tone if a magnetized plate is correctly coupled magneticly with the magnets; It provides a small amount of stronger magnetism (vs twice as less if not coupled) and the coupling extends a small amount of magnetism outward on the strings plane (a virtue that Harry DeArmond used in his pickups short but wide coils). Sometimes the electronic / bridge plate won't exhibit enough magnetism to be compass sensitive, in which case it doesn't matter which magnets poles are up or down as long as the same pole of each magnet is facing up (or down).
If a Valco has only 1 magnet plus a faux slug, then te importance of correct coupling with a magnetized electronics / bridge plate become even more noticeable. I have also found that which side of the pickup the magnet is on (faux slug on the other) will make a quite noticeable difference in tone. Magnet on the bass side excentuates bass tones with the treble tones thinner; While the magnet on the treble side will strengthen the treble without as much noticeable loss in bass tone (more mass in the bass strings); And those nuances will spread across the string plane quite nicely / evenly. Remember that the pole piece screws adjustments balance string volumes leaving the magnet placement effecting tone rather than volume.
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Well Hoo Hoopa Doo; That sure took allot of editing typing .....a lot longer than I anticipated. 
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Hope this helps; And I'm GLAD you got it working well. If it acts up again then I suggest studying the references that have been provided in this discussion chain; Lots of good info here.
_________________
Aloha,
Denny T~
http://www.dennysguitars.com/
Please help support humanity:
http://www.redcross.org/en/aboutus
Last edited by Denny Turner on 14 Oct 2009 5:43 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Walter Seaman
From:
Iowa, USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2009 5:08 am
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WOW!! Denny thanks SO much for that great posting with pix and fine details included. I was clearly in error and have learned a TON! So those WERE the magnets I moved around! I thought the little rectangular objects I'd seen next to the wound wires in pickups were the magnets in question but I am glad to have been wrong about that.
The Supro does sound great now and I've started using it in playing in the band I'm in (on Heart of Gold and Desperado, probably also Sleep Walk eventually).
Again many thanks for the details-I haved save the pages and have them on file in case any questions come up.
Hope I can return the favor one day!
WS |
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2009 6:00 am
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Thank You for your kind words, Walter; That's PLENTY payment, along with the info being helpful, ....as far as I'm concerned.
I think I was still editing when you posted last. You might want to redownload.
'Heart of Gold' ... 'Desperado' ... 'Sleepwalk';
I believe I'd darn enjoy yer band !
_________________
Aloha,
Denny T~
http://www.dennysguitars.com/
Please help support humanity:
http://www.redcross.org/en/aboutus |
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Matt Berg
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 16 Oct 2009 10:28 am
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Lots of this info was covered in a previous thread, but thanks muchly for taking pictures of a region I have been reluctant to explore in person.
I am also intrigued by the following, do you really believe this is more than a theoretical difference?
| Denny Turner wrote: |
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As a sidenote; Strangely the whole electronic-mounting / bridge plate (shown below) can become a bit magnetized from the magnets sitting on that plate for a long time, ...-------
If North on the compass points to the top of the plate, then install both of the magnet(s) with SOUTH DOWN and North up. If the South needle on the compass points to the top of the plate then install both the magnet(s) NORTH DOWN / South up. The little bit of magnetic "charge" in the electronics / bridge plate (if any) can make a noticeable good difference in the pickup tone if a magnetized plate is correctly coupled magneticly with the magnets; It provides a small amount of stronger magnetism (vs twice as less if not coupled) and the coupling extends a small amount of magnetism outward on the strings plane (a virtue that Harry DeArmond used in his pickups short but wide coils). Sometimes the electronic / bridge plate won't exhibit enough magnetism to be compass sensitive, in which case it doesn't matter which magnets poles are up or down as long as the same pole of each magnet is facing up (or down).
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I mean, can you actually hear the difference????
If so, I got some checking to do. Durn, I useta have a compass around somewhere's... |
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Posted 17 Oct 2009 4:16 am
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Denny wrote:
| Quote: |
| The little bit of magnetic "charge" in the electronics / bridge plate (if any) can make a noticeable good difference in the pickup tone if a magnetized plate is correctly coupled magneticly with the magnets...... |
Matt asked:
| Quote: |
| I mean, can you actually hear the difference???? |
Yes, it makes a difference both theoretically and to my ear; Maybe not significant to everyone. It's not psychological; I still have a good ear (for tone anyway, but at 62 the treble end of EQ is slowly but evermore tilting south!).
But it depends upon how much the electronics plate has become magnetized. You would think that most electronics plates of the same vintage would have the same amount of being magnetized, but they don't; And besides folks flipping the magnets during maintenance or repairs, there are probably other reasons why they don't get or maintain the same amount of being magnetized.
Where's Da Shadow when we need him ! ?
_________________
Aloha,
Denny T~
http://www.dennysguitars.com/
Please help support humanity:
http://www.redcross.org/en/aboutus |
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Matt Berg
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 17 Oct 2009 8:36 am
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| Denny Turner wrote: |
Denny wrote:
| Quote: |
| The little bit of magnetic "charge" in the electronics / bridge plate (if any) can make a noticeable good difference in the pickup tone if a magnetized plate is correctly coupled magneticly with the magnets...... |
Matt asked:
| Quote: |
| I mean, can you actually hear the difference???? |
Yes, it makes a difference both theoretically and to my ear...
But it depends upon how much the electronics plate has become magnetized. You would think that most electronics plates of the same vintage would have the same amount of being magnetized, but they don't; And besides folks flipping the magnets during maintenance or repairs... |
Cool. Seems like more basic than the diagnostics you mention is simply trial and error. Maybe even easier than mucking about with the magnets is to rotate the plate 180 degrees and give another listen.
Best thing of all is that there's so much clearance that I can do this strung up, plugged in and turned on. Easy access, baby.
Thanks again for the pix of the place I never want to go to. I am so much better at taking things apart than putting them together again. |
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Posted 17 Oct 2009 4:02 pm
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The wiring diagram and schematic in the Valco work pages I linked to above, has wire colors specific to that Steel which had been bastardized over the years.
So to avoid confusion, here is the wiring diagram and schematic correct for a 1953 Valco Steel:
WIRING DIAGRAM:
SCHEMATIC:
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Meta Tags: (National wiring, Supro wiring, Valco wiring, National schematic, Supro schematic, Valco schematic).
_________________
Aloha,
Denny T~
http://www.dennysguitars.com/
Please help support humanity:
http://www.redcross.org/en/aboutus |
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