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Topic: What % of what a listener hears is due to... |
Dennis Brooker
From:
Iowa, USA
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Posted 27 Sep 2009 6:26 am |
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What % of what a listener hears is due to the species of wood of a lap steel is made from for 1 - The pickup(s) for 2 - The amp including effects pedals, etc. for 3 - I'm wondering that on a fixed amount of money what your opinions are as to which is more important as far as the end result meaning the "sound" - I realize the "sound" may be an individual choice but the importantance of each of the 3 main components used to produce the sound is what I'm asking about -
For instance - Would you prefer a really cheap guitar with a so-so pickup but a reeeally great amp - Since I am still new to lap steels, pickups and amps, etc. I look forward to your opinions and comments - DB |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 27 Sep 2009 7:08 am When I was growing up.................
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In my early days, music that was DREAMY..........and pleasant, one you could humm days later, was the issue. Really didn't make any difference what g'tar, pickup, wood, Black Mica, or amp. It was "THE SOUND."
Some years later, FLASH was the answer. No one ever really hummed a Speedy West instrumental in the ear of his girlfriend so the points you ponder seem not important in this scenario. Alveno Rae and Joaquin Murphy equally as FLASHY!
Then on the scene came the R&R steel guitar converts and in too many instances, IMHO, LOUD and EAR PEARCING became THE SOUND of the day. It's lasted a long time and is still going on. My question is this a case of pickers playing for their own amusement/amazement..........or is it actually crowd pleasing?
TODAY, I think a lot of folks are drifting aimlessly back toward the sounds of Lloyd Green, the late John Hugey, early B.Emmons and other equally talented musicians. They can make just about any g'tar sing. While these fellows used nothing but the latest equipment.....JERRY BYRD managed to earn a huge international audience with his early day Rickenbacher and Volu-Tone amp. You figure........... |
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Tom Pettingill
From:
California, USA (deceased)
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Posted 27 Sep 2009 7:22 am
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A guitars sound / tone is the sum of its parts and construction. Wood(s) contribute a significant amount, but electronics / pickup(s) have the lions share of influence.
On amps, I've heard it said this way. A great guitar through a crap amp will always sound like crap.
_________________
Some misc pics of my hand crafted steels
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Roman Sonnleitner
From:
Vienna, Austria
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Posted 27 Sep 2009 7:28 am
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For the final tone, the amp is most important - a really bad, cheap guitar (I have to point out here that nowadays you can get GREAT guitars cheap, too!) through a great amp will ALWAYS sound better than a great guitar through a crappy amp. BTW, a huge part of the sound of the amp is determined by the speaker (type and size).
As for the sound of the guitar, pickups are the most important part - more so than tonewood; the type of wood DOES contribute some nuances to the final tone, but pickups play a much bigger role, you can totally change the tone of a guitar by simply changing pickup types (I'm NOT speaking from theory here, BTW, but from practical experience with trying various pickups in similar guitars made from various kinds of wood - admittedly, not lap steels, but Telecasters).
EDIT: Tom was faster - but it seems like we do agree! |
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Allan Munro
From:
Pennsylvania, USA and Scotland
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Posted 27 Sep 2009 7:46 am
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You ain't asking much there Dennis - you are asking EVERYTHING!
This could just possibly turn into the longest thread ever.
So, I wanna be part of that - Oh yeah...
First, the disclaimer: Much of what follows is opinion only and can't be 'proved'. There, that's the flameproof suit on.
The wood. You will hear much about 'tone woods' if you look into the subject. Many believe that, to qualify as a tone wood, it has to come from a small group of species. Not so. I have seen some of those species produce beautiful looking wood that was as dead as a lead brick soundwise. Equally, I have built acoustic instruments from, so called, joiners lumber because when I picked up the piece I could hear all of the harmonics in there.
The pickups. Make no mistake, all of the early pickups with the 'special' sound were the result of 'happenstance'. A very few people know what the result will be before they make a change to the design of a pickup. The trick is knowing what direction the change is going to take you. But if you start off with a reasonably good pickup, (preferably with adjustable poles) and work on it to maximize the tone, you will discover the vast range of sounds that are possible from that single unit.
Effects/amplifier. I can't say much on the effects aspect, I only use the Fender reverb built into my amp - I am not much into effects at all. However, a good amp, of a type generally accepted within the genre that you wish to fit into, is what you will want to get 'that' sound. The range of accepted amps has not been arrived at by accident - it's more an evolutionary thing. Look at some of the equipment lists that forum members post. Different equipment for different purposes.
I could go on like this for a long time but to get back to what you actually asked... Since the guitar and pickup generally come as a unit, (when new) personally, the guitar/PU comes ahead of the amplifier.
Always test an amp with your own guitar before buying it and always test a guitar with your own amp/electronics.
Ummmmm, I mean, always test a new chicken with your own egg and always test a new egg with........
Yeah, well.
OK, having completely convinced Dennis that what he really wants is to learn to play the nose flute, I will go and get off to the store with my wife.....
Regards, Allan.....
_________________
Only nuts eat squirrels.
Television is the REAL opiate of the masses! |
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Allan Munro
From:
Pennsylvania, USA and Scotland
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Posted 27 Sep 2009 8:01 am
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To avoid any confustication here...
The two posts above mine, Tom and Roman, are both exactly right too.
The amp does color the sound, see my reference to genre and equipment choice.
Oh Dennis, what kind of box have you opened up here?
Hence my reference to chicken-egg-chicken-egg-chi...
Oh, this could be a GREAT thread. There is not a member of this forum who couldn't write a book on it!
_________________
Only nuts eat squirrels.
Television is the REAL opiate of the masses! |
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George Piburn
From:
The Land of Enchantment New Mexico
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Posted 27 Sep 2009 8:12 am edit
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edit
Last edited by George Piburn on 22 Jun 2012 7:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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John Dahms
From:
Perkasie, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 27 Sep 2009 8:30 am
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This question has so many right answers.
Here's a factor.
If you are inspired by something you play better. You may be inspired by the look of the instrument (beautiful wood finish or design or the "mojo" of it being beat up) the fact that your amp is a certain model or your bar is a certain type. Whatever floats your boat might be the catalyst for you that sparks you to play in a certain way and makes it your sound.
I have opinions on what turns me on and I feel that is what makes for a good sound, but that only counts for me.
_________________
Time flies like an eagle
Fruit flies like a banana. |
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Randy Reeves
From:
LaCrosse, Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 27 Sep 2009 9:06 am
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this will be a great thread, for sure.
everything matters, IMO. amp, effects, guitar, player.
I like the idea of having the best gear for the genre.
a good clean amp for pedal steel is de rigur, for example.
I own several lap steels. all old (vintage). two are wood and one is metal; a Model 59 Rick.
whereas I do believe in tone woods... this metal Rick has the best sound to my ears. played with my best effects and best amp it blows the wood out of the water for tone and quality, nuanced, tone.
yeah, all the parts are essential. guitar, effects, amp, player, slide composite too. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 27 Sep 2009 9:10 am
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In my opinion the main variables are the Pickup, the Amp, and the construction of the guitar(the wood, scale length, etc)
Thousands of pages could be written on this topic... but briefly, consider vintage lap steels vs. today's lap steels. Vintage pickups had fewer windings and produced a very different tone than today's PUs. Tube amps of the 1950's and 60s sound a lot different than today's solid state amps. Differences in instruments can be clearly be seen in vintage/modern comparisons. Try getting Santo Farina's "Sleepwalk" tone on a new lap steel and a new solid state amp. It's ain't gonna happen. That tone is not in the modern gear. I think it's mainly due to the electronics... the PU and the amp.
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
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Posted 27 Sep 2009 9:33 am
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For me it's -
* First, I want to hear a sonic character that pleases me when I play the instrument acoustically
* Then, I want pickups that can transfer/build on that character as opposed to 'hijacking' the instrument's tone
* Last, but not the least, I want an amp that does justice to the (hopefully) gorgeous tone that's coming from the instrument.
What does the audience hear... You mean, they're actually listening?? 
_________________
"Play to express, not to impress"
Website - YouTube |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 27 Sep 2009 9:51 am
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I think the guitar is the most important. The pickup is only a microphone that can only use what goes into it. The same with the amp. Start with the best sounding steel guitar you can get. It might not be the newest and prettiest. Nothing sings like an old Ricky or honks like an old Fender. With that I have sold off most all my vintage lap steels because I think that Todd Clinesmith is making better sounding steels that the old ones. He makes the only new ones that truly sing for me also. They just so happen to be pretty.
The real beginning of your signal chain is your mind, ears and hands. Just past that is your steel. Everything runs downstream from there.
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Bob |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 27 Sep 2009 10:36 am
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There is a story about Jerry Byrd. It seems that after one kind of steel guitar get together or another he was playing various guitars. He played anything anybody handed him. Someone who had what he considered a piece of junk guitar and that he was trying to sell, handed said guitar to Mr. Byrd. After hearing Jerry play it for a minute or so, someone in the crowd aksed how much the prospective seller wanted for this guitar. It's not for sale, was the answer. It's nice to have good equipment. But the more I play the more true what Jerry Byrd was so fond of saying seems to be. "If you don't know how to play, it doesn't matter what kind of guitar you have. And if you do know how to play, it doesn't matter what kind of guitar you have."
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Amor vincit omnia |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 27 Sep 2009 11:25 am
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| Quote: |
| The real beginning of your signal chain is your mind, ears and hands. |
Amen. I'm reminded of the player who sits in with a band, using the other player's gear... he tweaks a few knobs on the amp and the guitar, and within a few minutes he has HIS tone, not the other guy's tone. It starts in the head and the hands, for sure.
Beyond that, it's the electronics and the construction of the instrument, in my opinion. Yes, there are several factors, but I think the pickup is the main factor... For example, the fastest way to destroy vintage tone is to put a modern PU on a vintage lap steel. Imagine putting new, high output humbuckers on a Stringmaster. There's no doubt it would radically change the sound of the instrument, probably more than any other single change would.
| Quote: |
| "If you don't know how to play, it doesn't matter what kind of guitar you have. And if you do know how to play, it doesn't matter what kind of guitar you have." |
There's a lot of truth in that. If I may humbly mention... my tune "Valco Swing" (link below) was recorded on a $60 Supro student lap steel, a real hunka junk. The next two Hawaiian tunes were recorded on a cheapo Guyatone (Japanese).
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Keith Cordell
From:
San Diego
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Posted 27 Sep 2009 3:46 pm
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Wood can have a big effect, my Chandler is a good demonstration of that. I have played dozens of the run of the mill guitars they make these days of mahogany or koa (not sure which) and they are fairly uninspiring. I recently purchased a birdseye maple chandler from a forumite and had intended it to be a short term utility steel, but wow the guitar has a piano like tone and great sustain. The pickups are reasonably decent but the guitar sounds great acoustically as well.
Amps are a lot more important than we give them credit for, but they can be inexpensive and still sound great. I use a Carvin Studio 60 for overdrive and a Peavey Bandit 65 for clean, neither cost me much and both are very good after a bit of tweaking. All told I have less than $1000 in my entire rig and it is quite the best I've had in a while. |
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Dom Franco
From:
Beaverton, OR, 97007
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Posted 27 Sep 2009 10:30 pm
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Just for fun try this:
Find a quiet room and play your electric steel unplugged (yes I know it won't be very loud)
You will hear and feel the body vibrate.
I have built lap steels out of Ash, Mahogany, Oak, Alder, Maple, and even plan old pine. And each wood has a different resonance to it, some of this is picked up by the pickups. What percentage?
I don't know but I am guessing 20-30% of the amplified sound is produced by the vibrating string transfering this energy through the bridge/nut and body of the guitar. Also some pickups are more "microphonic" than others, so they will be more affected by the acoustic vibrations in some greater % as compared to the electrical signal picked up.
Dom
 BTW I like playing unplugged, while sitting in the living room "watching" TV with my wife... especially during commercials. 
_________________
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYG9cvwCPKuXpGofziPNieA/feed?activity_view=3 |
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Allan Munro
From:
Pennsylvania, USA and Scotland
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Posted 27 Sep 2009 11:18 pm
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A couple of quick points. A microphonic pickup is that way because the coil moves relative to the magnetic core(s) of the PU. It is not really a desirable thing to have happening. I don't know if it is still done but there was a time when pickups were dipped in melted wax, or something else of that nature, to stop microphony from happening.
Thus, if your PU is working as it should, the influence of the wood is to maintain the vibration of the fundamental frequency and such harmonics as that particular piece of wood is capable of. So, the influence of the material from which the guitar is made is, in a sense, subtractive. The first output from the string/PU combination contains all that the string is capable of generating and very shortly afterwards the effect of the body is felt as it influences what remains in the sound during the decay period. The length of the decay (the sustain) and the remaining harmonics (the tone/timbre) together form the sound of each instrument.
It can be seen from this that, since wood is a natural substance and no two pieces are thus quite the same, no two guitars will be quite the same in sound either. When we add in the effect of different types of wood the equation becomes even more complex.
The shape of the body does come into play at the 'post-pluck' stage as it affects the phasing of the returning vibrations within its self. This is a subject of immense proportion as it involves almost infinitely variable compound standing wave considerations.
When the influence of acoustic chambering is chucked in as well...
Oh poo, I am starting to write ANOTHER book here!
Allan.....
_________________
Only nuts eat squirrels.
Television is the REAL opiate of the masses! |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 28 Sep 2009 1:34 am
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| Quote: |
| What % of what a listener hears is due to |
I don't think that many of us here can even qualify to wear that hat, we're NOT the average listener.
We (Mostly) are much too deeply into the technical side of the instrument, whilst the average listener just sees (hears) our playing as part of the much bigger picture, and embedded within it.
The average listener IMHO is almost unaware of what a steel guitar is, let alone the Vagaries and minutia involved in discerning the "sound" (tone etc.)
The question in my mind is "DOES the average listener discern and identify the various components of a musical performance or recording?"
_________________
Steelies do it without fretting
CLICK THIS to view my tone bars and buy——> |
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Dennis Brooker
From:
Iowa, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2009 4:18 am
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I want to thank all of you for your replies and I'm eagerly looking forward to even more replies to this thread - I had no idea I had asked such a complex question  - My personal goal was to get a general idea of where to place the %'s of my budget on a rig - I will make my own lap steel of which 97% of my effort will go into the design because I'm weird and that's just me - I know nothing of pickups and amps but am learning from you all by reading threads and doing research - I understand that in the end my rig will be based on my budget, choice of equipment and the choice of my desired "sound" - And as with anything I may choose to change that "sound" at some point in time -
Before I started this thread I was totally confused - After reading the replies so far I may now be brain damaged beyond repair but with everyones professional help I hope to be better in the near future - I'm very glad I asked this question  and have already learned a great deal from your replies and am looking forward to continuing my education - DB |
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Tom Wolverton
From:
Carpinteria, CA
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Posted 28 Sep 2009 6:09 am hands-to-ear
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It's in that hand-to-ear feedback loop. I.e., the system that works to let you play in tune and with feeling (IMHO). Especially the way vibrato is added in. Just like with a singer, tasty vibrato is super important.
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To write with a broken pencil is pointless. |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 28 Sep 2009 5:16 pm
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I've heard some great music come out of the cheapest equipment, and some awful sounds from the most expensive equipment. I've always believed that someone with talent can make great sounds whatever they play, and someone with no talent can hurt the ears with the best equipment.
You cannot buy talent, you can buy equipment.  |
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Eugene Cole
From:
near Washington Grove, MD, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2009 9:58 pm
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The combination I suggest is as follows: Start with an adequate amp for the tuning and gain you require. Have you instrument setup properly with reguard to string height and nut-slot polish/width. Do not tollerate sloppy tuning machines. Get help selecting instructors and/or instructional materials.
The signal chain starts with the players body primarily hands and arms and pretty much progresses as follows:
* body/hands/arms
* bar and fingers/palm (many add picks)
* strings/bridge/body
* pickup
* cable
* pre-amp & effects
* Amp
* speaker(s)
* air
* ears
* brain & listeners perception
There are of course a variety of variations on this but this is the gist of it.
Poor shielding be it a degraded myalin sheath aroung the auditory nerve, a pickup cavity, a cable, or a cabinet around outboard equipment: any of these things can all create problems or influence the results. I listed all of these things to illustrate that the number of factors which influence the results are many. I'll not comment on every aspect of this chain.
You asked: "What % of what a listener hears is due to the species of wood of a lap steel is made from..." Your premise that wood will be present is a faulty premise; a variety on materials may comprise the body and components. Materials have inherent properties (e.g. resonant frequencies) Environmental factors influence the properties of materials. A particular species of wood may be vary by rainfall and even the nutrients in the soil. Denser and more rigid materials tend to have a higher resonant frequency and tend to offer longer sustain when all other things are equal (they rarely are).
I have always felt that the speaker(s) system is the essential link. It really does not matter what is up stream in the chain if the speaker(s) can not produce what you want them to produce. I have a Fender Chamion 110 amp which is a barely adequate amp for praticing guitar at low volume, if I plug my 5 string bass in to it and play the low-B string through it; the amp and the speaker are both conspicuously incapable of producing what I want to hear.
A very bright sounding pickup can be often be EQ'd to sound OK to my ears/brain; often a simple capacitor based passive tone control can do this.
If you have a single-coil or a non-humbucking pickup installed and a source of electrical noise even the "best" of equipment will not be able to cope with the environment. Sometimes humbucking pickups meet their match too.
In my experience the things which are the most problematic are:
1. Nuts which are not of adequate quality and/or fininsh. These nuts can create and maintain tuning issues which render an instrument useless and/or frustraing.
2. Amps/pre-amps and speakers which undesirably color the sound. With amps the problem is harmonic distortion and clipping. Speakers with aging cones or that are not physically capable of producing a wave forms accurately. DO NOT purchase a Fender Champion 110 for playing clean and undistorted sound!
3. Poor shielding. This can often be addressed with some foil or new/upgraded wire.
4. Tuning machines. Many have a limited life and fail long before they get replaced.
_________________
Regards
-- Eugene <sup>at</sup> FJ45.com
PixEnBar.com
Cole-Luthierie.com
FJ45.com
Sierra U14 8+5 my copedent, 1972 MSA D10 8+4, and nothing in the Bank. 8^) |
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norm mcdaniel
From:
waco tx
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Posted 29 Sep 2009 4:27 am
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I agree with what Ray says. I love the stuff Jerry played, I only wish Id payed more attention to him and his picking when I was younger Thanks again Ray for your opinions.
Norm in Waco Tx |
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