"Frosted Duco" paint available

John Allison · Post by **John Allison** » 17 Sep 2009 6:04 pm

A while back I was researching this finish for the restoration of an old Duolian. There are several references to formulas and Napthalene seems to be the secret ingredient, although I did find an old formula that listed Paradichlorbenzene. Both have been used in mothballs and I'm not sure which is more effective in making the crystal frosted finish.
Anyway I had run across this paint:
http://jurgeninc.com/cracklepaint.htm
I though it couldn't possibly be that easy given the cloak of secrecy that seems to surround this particular finishing method. After a few vague attempts at finding the chemicals necessary to mix a batch, I broke down and ordered this product.
Turns out it's just the stuff. It smells like the mother of all urinal cakes and it's pretty finicky about application, but it'll give you the frosted look.
I'm still experimenting with the type of coat that will give the big nice crystal flowers instead of a finer, regular pattern. I'll post some pics when I get a coat that looks really good.

Bobby Burns · Post by **Bobby Burns** » 18 Sep 2009 5:40 am

Not only crackle paint, but check out those girly wine glasses!

Bobby Burns · Post by **Bobby Burns** » 18 Sep 2009 5:43 am

John. That is a very good find. Thanks for sharing it with us. I'll look forward to seeing a guitar when you finish it.
I'd heard you could mix mothballs with lacquer also, but I didn't have very good luck years ago when I tried it, and I couldn't smell anything for days.
Hope all is well in Austin.

John Allison · Post by **John Allison** » 18 Sep 2009 8:08 am

I think the purity of the chemicals is important. What I'm finding is that the thickness of the coat and how fast it sets up is really important. All I know is I don't want to mess with it any more than I have to. I have a small shop and the odor clings to everything. I've been walking around smelling like an old lady's house since I opened the can.

early sample - very cool and it exactly matches the look of the original I'm finish I'm trying to duplicate, but I need some bigger crystals.[/img]

Bobby Burns · Post by **Bobby Burns** » 18 Sep 2009 11:03 am

That looks pretty promising. I wonder if temperature effects the pattern? What happens if you spray it warm, and then chill it? Spray it cool and then warm it?

Tom Pettingill · Post by **Tom Pettingill** » 18 Sep 2009 11:09 am

Cool stuff John.

What I'm finding is that the thickness of the coat and how fast it sets up is really important.

I'm just guessing here, but cool and wet should give it the best chance for the lattice to grow before it sets.

John Allison · Post by **John Allison** » 18 Sep 2009 11:31 am

A more promising pattern:

The look of this particular guitar I'm re-doing is really different from the other frosted bodies I've seen. It's opaque, for one thing and it looks less "galvanized". It's more like a fingerprint-y swirl pattern with some random mondo snowflakes in it.

As far as the thickness and drying time goes, it seems that a really heavy spray and slow dry gives it time to become long, uniform, unidirectional lines. Really thin gives it a finely-crazed look. Just good and wet seems to be pretty good and I'm thinking that slightly cooler with less humidity than I have today is probably better. Breaking the surface just as it tacks up solidly or some other surface imperfection is what gives the discrete flowers/snowflakes.

Jason Dumont · Post by **Jason Dumont** » 18 Sep 2009 12:20 pm

Wow! I think you've come the closest out of anybody with that silver sample, including Elderly's and National. (imho)
The original stuff is just so thin and subtle. Here is a pic of my Duolian. I don't know how they did it but I hope you find out

http://img223.imageshack.us/i/image002dc.jpg/
http://img87.imageshack.us/i/image012hj.jpg/
It looks like you almost have the flowers down

James Fleming · Post by **James Fleming** » 18 Sep 2009 12:58 pm

I see where this this stuff is Translucent.
Are you using a bottom coat of paint, and over spraying with the Crystal finish? I like the look of this.
Might look killer with one of Dennis' faux shell fretboards.
I'm still looking for ideas to re-do the old beater Bronson I am working on.
Jim

John Allison · Post by **John Allison** » 18 Sep 2009 1:37 pm

The stuff from Jurgen is transparent colored lacquer It's actually very easy to make it behave like the silver frosted finish. My project needs to get closer to this:

So far I've just added some opaque black to the Jurgen Green and thinned a little to spray. I'm pretty certain that the look I need is going to involve an opaque lacquer with the proper additive. The straight transparent stuff is very cool, though. In fact two customers just left my shop vowing to get something refinished like this after seeing the sample.

One thing I haven't really addressed is any sort of protective top coat. The crystals tend to disappear under a clear coat and they don't come back. The finish seems sturdy enough, but it's hard to bring myself to finish without topcoats.

Gary Meixner · Post by **Gary Meixner** » 18 Sep 2009 2:48 pm

John,

Thank you so much for sharing this information with us. Would a small amount of lacquer retarder slow the dry time and give the crystals a chance to form. Also fish-eye flow-out might change the surface tension enough to allow the film to respond to the PDB crystals as they reform. Although if you don't already use fish-eye flow-out in your spray room you better not start, as it can cause a lot of trouble. I work with a paint chemist who has had his hand in just about every formula that there is. I will get his take on the process when we talk Monday morning. Good luck and thanks again for sharing

Gary

Bobby Burns · Post by **Bobby Burns** » 18 Sep 2009 4:53 pm

John, it looks like you may just become "The guy who can do a National frosted duco finish". Since you are already "The guy who does the best Gibson style sunburst". Is life really fair?

John Allison · Post by **John Allison** » 18 Sep 2009 6:02 pm

It's a really interesting process and I have to resist the temptation to play with this stuff all day.
I haven't tried any retarder, but it would undoubtedly make some difference. The stuff is pretty slow-drying already, though I don't see any particularly slow solvents in the MSDS.
As much as I've wanted to avoid it, before it's all said and done, I'll almost surely be playing around with Napthalene crystals or some form of Paradiclhor.
Somebody, somewhere knows the history of this finish, but even without first-hand knowlege, it's possible to recreate the formulas and play around with application.
I'll try talking to the guy at Jurgen and see if he has any experience with this type finish in opaque lacquer.
Bobby, as for being "the guy", it seems to me that with this easily available paint, nearly anybody can produce a passable version of the frosted finish. I think it'll take some finesse to get to the coolest manifestations of it, though. And I'm still a little doubtful as to the durability of a one-shot finish.

Fun stuff, though!

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 20 Sep 2009 1:45 pm

Steve Olson @ Elderly reformulated the duco finish for National Guitars

http://conetone.blogspot.com/2008/03/welcome.html

Bert Deivert · Post by **Bert Deivert** » 21 Sep 2009 12:12 am

absolutely brilliant BUT the stuff is probably banned in Sweden and they would grab it at customs! Is there a significant difference using a small paintbrush or cloth to apply instead of spraying?

cheers
BERT

John Allison · Post by **John Allison** » 21 Sep 2009 5:39 am

Drew, I spoke with Steve when I was deciding whether to pursue the job myself or farm it out.

Bert, the additives are no more hazardous than the lacquer they're mixed in. Don't know what the normal Haz-Mat restrictions would be, but I would think that if you can order a spray can of lacquer from ReRanch, you should be able to order this.
It will work just fine with a brush application, as far as I can tell. Getting an even coat on large surfaces would be a problem, though.

Mark Bracewell · Post by **Mark Bracewell** » 21 Sep 2009 9:38 am

John Allison wrote: One thing I haven't really addressed is any sort of protective top coat. The crystals tend to disappear under a clear coat and they don't come back.

I wonder if a coat or two of shellac over the crystal stuff, then a lacquer topcoat...

John Bushouse · Post by **John Bushouse** » 21 Sep 2009 11:27 am

Would it work on a woodbody?

John Allison · Post by **John Allison** » 21 Sep 2009 2:29 pm

John Bushouse wrote:Would it work on a woodbody?

I'll see what happens over primer or sealer. One would think there'd have been a pimer coat over the bare metal, but I don't know. I'm given to understand that some surfaces won't facilitate the crystal-forming process.

Mark Bracewell wrote:I wonder if a coat or two of shellac over the crystal stuff, then a lacquer topcoat...

I think that anything that bonds into the layer by melting it will dissolve the crystals. Ultimately, I think one big heavy coat is the correct method.

Tom Pettingill · Post by **Tom Pettingill** » 14 Nov 2011 8:00 am

Hey John ... what ever became of this project?

John Allison · Post by **John Allison** » 14 Nov 2011 2:07 pm

Hey Tom
That's been gone for a while. I don't know if I ever got any pictures of it. I ended up doing a couple of old Nationals - the green/brown one and a gold one. Both turned out quite nicely, but I never got a perfect reproduction of that "flowers" look. I'll see if I can round up any pics.

I decided that the smell alone was enough to make me not want to do deal with it any more, though I really like the look and I might talk myself into another project someday.

Tom Pettingill · Post by **Tom Pettingill** » 14 Nov 2011 9:02 pm

I'd love to see how they turned out if you find some pics.
Did you ever figure out how to top coat it without losing the effect?

John Allison · Post by **John Allison** » 15 Nov 2011 5:50 am

Top coating is really not an option. It's a pretty durable finish and it just has to be laid on all at once. Slow drying time seems to help with the crystal development.

Geoff Cline · Post by **Geoff Cline** » 15 Nov 2011 10:27 am

First time I've seen this thread, but I do have a soft spot for the old finish...particularly when it goes "psychedelic" over time, like my '31 Sears Duolian

Tom Pettingill · Post by **Tom Pettingill** » 15 Nov 2011 3:46 pm

John Allison wrote:Top coating is really not an option. It's a pretty durable finish and it just has to be laid on all at once. Slow drying time seems to help with the crystal development.

Thanks John!

The Steel Guitar Forum

"Frosted Duco" paint available

"Frosted Duco" paint available

Bottom coat?