Duesenberg Multibender with C6 tuning?

[Danny James]

Roman,
I have designed and built a lap steel guitar with a tuning changer in it. Our friend, Don Kona Woods mentioned Phil Bender & myself. Phil has built a couple of them and the last one has many change capabilities in it. He may want to chime in here also.
I also try to play a Multi-Kord pedal steel guitar 6 string 6 pedal.
The tunings below I use on the lapsteel and the Multi-Kord.
I play classic country, hawaiian, & gospel with these tunings.

Both of these guitars are based on the A major low bass tunings to start with. I will list them high to low.

A-- E, C#, A, E, A, E

E-- E, B, G#, E, B, E

C6th--E, C, A, G, A, E

A6th--E, C# A, F#, A E

These are the tunings on the Lapsteel
---------------------------------------------------
On my Multi-Kord I use the above plus these two additional tunings. I change tunings during a song on this guitar.

D7th with added 9th --E, C, A, F#, A, D

Emi.--E, B, G, E, B, E

I hope these may be of some help to you.

[Roman Sonnleitner]

A little update: In the meantime I've mounted a Multibender with 3 levers on one of my lap steels.
Tried it tuned to C6, with the raises we talked aboput above (the ones Mike Neer suggested after my wishes) - but you guys were right, those aren't too useful.
Also tried playing around with the lap steel tuned to E7, and the raises suggested by Iain, and I can get much more useful stuff our of that.

Guess it's time to learn a new tuning... (anybody got any tips for E7 learning material - I already have the green MelBay book).

Oh, and if the E7 does work for me, I'll probably build a double neck, one neck with C6 (8-string), the second with E7 and the Multibender.

[Allan Munro]

I have been looking at this thing for a while (YouTube) but I can't see how it works. (the mechanics of it I mean) My basic question is, can it do lowers?

Thanks, Allan.....

[Roman Sonnleitner]

Yes, it can do lowers.

BTW, had a bit of a "tuning-epiphany" yesterday after writing my last post...
Let me explain how I got to a tuning that might work for me, and will make it necessary for me to build a double-neck.

As I said, I like the pedal-steely licks I can get with E7, and the raises in the second and third strings (kinda like AB pedals on a PSG); but I'm so used to "my" C6, that I though about transposing the E7 to C7, so that the chords would be in the same positions I'm used to - here's what it would look like transposed:

E7......C7

E ----- C
B ----- G
G# ---- E
E ----- C
D ----- Bb
B ----- G

But, hold on, that looks really familiar - lets place this new C7 next to "my" usual C6 (the top 6 strings of an 8-string C6 tuning):

C7......C6

C ----- _
G ----- G
E ----- E
C ----- C
Bb ---- A
G ----- G
_ ----- E

Almost a perfect match, naturally, except for the 6th vs. dom7th (Bb vs. A), and the high C on top.

Well, that C7 is quite a bit higher than E7, so i guess that really high C on top won't be that useful (and I'd need a really thin string, a .008 probably) - lets forget about it;
the A (6th) in my C6 tuning coul be easily raised to the Bb (7th) with one of the Multibender levers; and those "AB-pedal" benders on the 2nd and 3rd string in E7/C7 could easily be moved to the first and second string on my resulting tuning.

So I'm going to end up with something like that:

G --> A
E --> F
C
A --> Bb
G
E

What do you think? Looks useful, right? I've got my C6 without bending levers, I've got a dom7th with that 3rd lever, and I've got PSG-like "AB-pedal" moves with the top two strings...

Gotta check out how it works in real life!

[Ryan Barwin]

If I had a Multibender, I'd tune to E6...low to high" B C# E G# B E
I'd have a lever to raise the high B a whole tone (A pedal), the G# a semitone (B pedal) and the high E either a semitone (F lever) or a whole tone (C pedal). Or maybe lower the low E a semitone instead (E lever).
I tune my lap steels like that, and use string pulls and slants to get those changes....it's got a lot of the basic E9 sound.
If you wanted to use C6 with these changes, you'd want to tune it to GACEGC.

[Jamie Argent-Jones]

Hey Roman,
Thanks for your help on one of my own posts. Now - why replace a perfectly good pedal steel with a lap steel with extra bits on it so you can make it play more like a pedal steel? I guess portability, but surely you will eventually want more and more levers as you master the use of them I know I would

[James Mayer]

I've explored this topic HERE.

I settled on E9 for my six-string pedal steel. However, the closest I got to C6 with benders was:

E----->F
C----->D
A----->B
G
E
C

This allows you to get the I-IV (A+B) transitions in both major and minor keys (C-F and Am-Dm). Also, you can get I-V (C-G, Am - Em) as well. All with levers only.

[Roman Sonnleitner]

Now - why replace a perfectly good pedal steel with a lap steel with extra bits on it so you can make it play more like a pedal steel? I guess portability

I already explained that in my first post on this thread - portability does play a role, but mainly I never got the hang of that instrument (PSG), it feels really counter-intuitive to play, and that takes the fun out of it...

[Michael Papenburg]

This is a very interesting thread. I am also into the same bands that you are and have also been trying to get a pseudo pedal steel sound out of a lap steel. I have considered going down the same path that you did but was concerned that it would be too difficult to manipulate the levers while picking. Any comments on this?

The closest I've come to emulating the sound of a pedal steel is with the following tuning:

F#
G#
E
C#
B
G#
E
B

Unfortunately, I had to sell my 8 string last year due to some very high medical bills that my wife had. I have since come up with the following 6 string tuning:

F#
G#
E
B
G#
E

While there are no levers changing the pitches, the "sound" is definitely in the ballpark. The tuning was difficult for me at first since I was used to G6 but it really clicked around a month ago and I've been using it more and more.

I realize that this doesn't help you much. I just wanted to say that I relate to where you are coming from and show you where I've ended up so far.

[Iain]

Hi, Roman

I'm glad to see you've got going with the multibender. I have a feeling you're going to do much more with it than I ever have so I'll be watching this post with a lot of interest! Good stuff.

I think seeing it as a "poor-man's pedal steel" might be partially missing a point, by the way (as other posters seem to view it): when I use mine it's certainly partly attractive simply because of the portability issue but I also feel I approach it more "guitaristically" (if there's such a word), which suits me - a more linear, note-based approach, as opposed to the more chordal way I approached pedal steel (due, basically, to my own limitations, I know).

Just my experience of the D/berg, obviously, but I think the multibender is a valid tool for getting something out of people that maybe they can't manage to produce from a pedal steel. Er, I think...anyway, I like mine, for what that's worth.

[Roman Sonnleitner]

Iain,
I think my "guitaristic" approach is the reason why I'm so turned of by the pedal steel guitar - that instrument can't be played "guitaristical" (in the sense that you intuitevely rely on licks, riffs, pentatonic "boxes", chord shapes, etc.), you always have to have theory on your mind or you'll be lost immediately.
That said, I use my lap steel more as a chordal instument, rather than as a linear/melodic/solo-intrument, mainly providing chord pads, "athmosphere/ambiance/texture" - but there's only so much you can do with slants, etc. on an instrument with a fixed relation of the strings like the lap steel is - and I hope the bender will help me with that...
I don't know whether you're familiar with bands like Calexico or Richmond Fontaine - but the sounds that the PSG-players with those bands are making are what I'm shooting for myself here are some examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkJs6BJiogk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh4g1UatleI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkryXbJ14dE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8L0TH0_xkU
- I hope the Multibender will help me getting sounds like that from my lap steel.

[Danny Bates]

Roman, for much cheaper, you can buy a Bigsby Palm Pedal and hook it to a lap steel or a 6 string guitar for that matter. To reproduce a sound like Calexico's steeler, you'd need a good compressor (min. quality = mxr dynacomp)and good volume pedal and a small amp (40 watts max) and set the amp so close to you that it will feedback if you stomp on it. Don't let the amp distort! At least not too much.

At this point, your basically controlling the feedback with the volume pedal. Make sure the notes have the ability to sustain until the fret noise can sound like indy cars scraping the walls.

First run your volume pedal, run into an echo and then a reverb. Chorus is great live too if your really want that big full sound.

Remember these sounds are ambient. They have no natural dynamics. Volume is controlled by the volume pedal. If anything, the touch of the guitar is very light. Think "Pink Floyd" mellow.

I've been doing this bender and lap steel stuff a long time. When you really get down to it, all this simple ambient stuff could be done on a lap steel with no pedals at all. I played for a long time with an old Gibson Melody maker with a palm pedal and a volume pedal. After that got ripped off, I bought a cheap morell lap and stuck a Bill Lawrence strat pickup in it and stuck it on a keyboard stand. Sounded great.

Nowadays, I sit on my ass and play an old Ric Bakelite on my lap... then just thru a boss pedalboard. It sounds killer... Of course I'm playing thru an evans amp cranked way up.

In the studio I plug into a (Korg/Marshall era)Vox AC-15 with a celestion blue in it.

Regarding your "Guitaristic" approach, I understand and I think you're putting too much thought into it. Approach pedal steel with these thoughts: "5 notes are all I need to play in a major key and 5 notes are all I need to play in a minor key. These are the same pattern for major or minor. The difference is only 3 frets. If I learn the patterns of those 5 notes, I can play any song in any key. If I memorize the tonality, I won't need to think at all... Just listen and play"

[Roman Sonnleitner]

Danny, I have a Princeton Reverb clone and use a volume pedal all the time; did use a compressor with my lap steel for a while, but like the sound better without one...

BTW, I tried messing asround with the tuning I described above, but have some problems with the highest strings - I'm really having a hard time raising that G two semitones up to A, the range of the bender lever doesn't give me two semitones of upwards bending with that string.
And that 1st string keeps breaking all the time when I want to bend it (I've tried gauges from .009 to .011).

[Michael Papenburg]

I personally feel that you are probably going to have to go back to an E based tuning to make this work. I just don't think the highest notes will do what you want them to. While E based tunings were a bit odd for me at first, there is nothing like total immersion to get it under your fingers. Plus, then you'll be comfortable with two different tunings.

Just my .02¢.

[Roman Sonnleitner]

Yeah, that's what I'm going to try next - a "low" version of E7:

B--->C#
G#-->A
E
C#-->D
B
G#

[Roman Sonnleitner]

Oooops, double post... [DELETE]

[Thomas Ludwig]

Roman,
your youtube examples sounds wonderful, really my kind of music. I'm also thinking more and more about pedals. Like you, I play C6 no pedals only. So I need a D10 PSG, but I'm so afraid of the heavy monster ...

Thomas

[Roman Sonnleitner]

I hope my on-going saga doesn't bore you guys too much - but here's the tuning I've finally settled on after messing around with various tunings for the last couple of days, breaking a dozen of high strings (always fun when you press down that bender lever and the ball-end from the string shoots across the room...), and re-stringing that Multibender a lot of times (anybody who ever complained about re-stringing guitars with Bigsby tremolos should never even consider the Multibender...)

E6/7:

E
B ---> C#
G# --> A
E
D ---> C# (or C# --> D)
B

- the two levers on the 2nd and 3rd strings are my "AB-pedals", that allow easy I-IV-V moves, bend the 2nd string to the 6th, and allow other PSG-sounding licks, too.
The lever on the 5th string gives me either a 7th, or a lower octave 6th - which is at the same time a lower root note for minor chords; I'm not 100% sure yet whether to set it up at C# with a semitone raise, or at D with a semitone lower - the first one seems more useful (I need minor chords quite a bit more often in my music than dom7 chords, and like the sound of 6th chords), but the second one seems to move a bit more smoothly, with less extreme lever action.
Incidentially, it is quite easy to change the benders on the unit from raises to lowers, you just have to slide in a spring (supplied with the unit), and move the ball-end of the string from one position on the bender lever to another one.

[Danny Bates]

Very good Roman, I'm glad you found what you're looking for.

I think you should use the C# --> D because the D won't work well with the C# and A raises. And you won't have to hit all three levers at the same time.

Also, if you lower your 6th string to A, you will have an A maj 9th chord with all 6 strings and a regular major with the 2 raises.

Maybe you could install one of those levers on your low tuning key to lower it to an A note real quick.

[James Mayer]

A little update: In the meantime I've mounted a Multibender with 3 levers on one of my lap steels.
Tried it tuned to C6, with the raises we talked aboput above (the ones Mike Neer suggested after my wishes) - but you guys were right, those aren't too useful.

Roman, I'm curious to know why those changes weren't useful. It seems you can get I, IV, and VI chords with three levers and without any bar movements. It looks just as functional as the E tuning you eventually went with. Did it just not sound very good?

[Roman Sonnleitner]

The three bender levers next to each other were kind of hard to operate, and I had problems with the high E string breaking a couple of times; and somhow it just didn't feel "right", can't really pinpoint it down to why...

Now, the E6 has has worked really well for me, already played my first gig with that.
I had feared using two different tunings because of having to change guitars, not being able to rely on my familiar tuning, and having to wrap my mind around a new tuning - in practice, it worked much better:
I simply put both my 8-string C6 and 6-string E6 with bender side-by-side on a keyboard stand (so switching isn't a big deal - but I do already plan on building a double neck next spring...).
I haven't really delved into the finer details of the E6-tuning yet, but I'm already quite proficient playing it by "feel"/"ear", relying on chord positions, esp. in songs that confine themselves to I-IV-V-chords (will have to explore a bit more, though, to be able to play more complex stuff, too).
But the best: I found that having two tunings that are a bit apart works well when playing with different singers who prefer singing in different keys, because some keys/chord changes are simply better laid out on the E-tuned lap steel, and others on the C-tuned one...

[James Mayer]

Roman, I'm not sure why this wasn't suggested before but try GCEGCE. It's such an effective solution for "C6 + pedals" that I'm not sure how I didn't arrive at it myself. Bob suggested it in another thread.

One lever raises the G to an A, so all of your C6 repertoire can be played by simply utilizing that lever. The other lever raises the E to an F, so they act as the standard I to IV (A + B) transition when used together.

I've got my 6-string pedal steel setup like Bob suggested HERE. I'm able to play all of my band's nonpedal C6 parts and also make convincing pedal steel sounds.

[Roman Sonnleitner]

Thanks, but I've been using E6 (BC#EG#BE, as described above) for a few months now, and have gotten used to it.
My initial fears that it would be confusing to use yet another tuning didn't come true, and I found it quite useful to have an alternative tuning that sits in a different pitch range.
I do find it a bit inconvenient to carry around two lap steels, that's why I'm going to build a double-neck in the near future!

[Morgan Scoggins]

Pardon me for asking the obvious question that nobody wants to ask, but why would someone spend around $1700 on a 6 string lap steel with string benders to emulate the sound of a pedal steel when you could take the same money a buy a decent pedal steel with 10 strings and 3 or 4 knee levers and 3 pedals?
No offense intended, but I saw a Duesenberg Lap Stel on Ebay with an asking price of $1700 for a used instrument.

[Roman Sonnleitner]

Well, even if I had that kind of money, I wouldn't spend that much on that Duesenberg Pomona lap steel (though it does look great, and has a lot of nice features) - but: this is not some cheapo Chinese-made mass-produced item, and the pricing is right in line with other Duesenberg guitars, and not that much higher than other top-of-the-line lap steels (Asher, Cliensmith, etc.)

Me, I'm happy with the 200€ Multibender added to my homemade lap steel.

Oh, and keep in mind: I doubt that the Duesenberg Pomona is really targeted at prospective PSG players - this is more for experienced lap steelers who want to add another trick to the arsenal.
Also, sure, a PSG may offer much more options at about the same price - but it is also much larger, and more cumbersome to set up - you wouldn't take a PSG to, say, a jam session at a small cafe or bar, something like the Duesenberg you just sling over your shoulder in the gigbag, you don't need to put it together and set it up before playing, and it won't need a whole lot of space on stage...
Also, 2 levers are much less intimidating than 3 pedals & 4 levers for, say, a regular guitar player, who just wants to add a few pedal steel licks to his arsenal.

Another point: to you guys in the US the Duesy is an imported model, so prices look much more unfavorable compared to your domestic PSGs; over here, the Duesenberg Pomona costs about 1250€ new - the very cheapest pedal steels available over her cost about 1000€ new (Carter Starter, WBS Basic), "serious" ones cost quite a bit more (well above 1700€), and used PSGs are rare as hens' teeth (and rarely go for less than a thousand Euro-bucks, too...)