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Topic: Controling Stage Volume |
Gary Meixner
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 12 Sep 2009 6:54 am |
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Does anybody use a compressor along with a volume pedal when playing (non-pedal) steel guitar? Lately I have been in a number of situations, usually festivals or outdoor events where the over all stage volume is a mess. No time for an adequate sound check and the sound man wants to mix us like a rock band. I find I am riding the volume pedal constantly trying to keep the volume spikes under control and still hear what I am doing. I thought a compressor might help keep a lid on things at the sacrifice of some dynamic expression. I don't use any other effects, only a very little reverb and Music Man HD 130. Thanks.
Gary |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 12 Sep 2009 10:58 am
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Well, I tried using a compressor with a volume pedal (on pedal steel). I found the compressor worked so well to soften attacks and maintain sustain that I was afraid it would stunt my learning to do those things properly with the volume pedal. So I quit using the compressor. But now that you mention this high volume problem, it has made me rethink that.
The problem with a really high stage volume level is that there is a very narrow workable volume range. If you drop a smidge below it, you are totally lost in the mix. But, since you are already so close to the pain threshold, if you spike even a little bit above the mix it's not good. Maybe that's the one situation where a little compression would be useful, to help you stay in that narrow workable range. |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 12 Sep 2009 11:55 am About stage volume...............
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If the noise is so loud you can't hear the guy on the other side of the stage, YOU'RE TOO LOUD!
Same applies to he/she.......... Some of these wanna-be's have never taken the time to learn the basics and without them, they're like a ship without a rudder. They haven't the ability to discern right from wrong, good from bad.
Playing in an active group does not a professional musician make. |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 12 Sep 2009 5:31 pm
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The sound guy is the first one to punch in the nose  |
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Gary Meixner
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2009 7:47 am Follow up to controlling stage volume
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Hey Guys, Thanks for the responses. Ray I am not sure if I am supposed to take offense to your comments or not. The band I play in is a nice little group: stand up bass, fiddle, accordion, acustic guitar, drums and steel. Eveyone in the band knows what they are doing and we play well together. The situation I am describing is one where we have to work under a tight schedule and often with sound techs that lack the experience with our instrumnts or the commitment to put on a great show. I was just looking for a little advice not a critique but perhaps you have heard me play. This is only my third post and already I am causing trouble.
Gary |
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George Piburn
From:
The Land of Enchantment New Mexico
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Posted 13 Sep 2009 10:14 am Volume Fest -- The New Normal ,
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Simply Make every one turn Down , Period. Tell the Sound Man , turn it down , and all of the Players too.
If needed Stop Playing entirely , and over the main PA Tell the Knob Meister, "Turn Down the Over All Volume" -- Please.
Compressors and EFX all have their uses, the big issue now of Daze is that most eveyone Wants full electricity--big loud monitors and so on.
It all starts with the on stage players , their rigs , and communication with the Sona Techs. The Blame Game is always a looser, most audio folks will actually do as the group requests. More often than not , the players all think they need to be in all of the pa and monitors. Less is more.
Welcome to the Forum Gary, try not to take anyone's Opinion too seriously, we all pretty much want the best for one another.
MR.Boards |
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Don Barnhardt
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2009 10:15 am
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| Were you asking for agreement or advise? |
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Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
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Posted 13 Sep 2009 10:38 am
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| Don Barnhardt wrote: |
| Were you asking for agreement or advise? |
The "problem" with Ray's response is that he obviously misunderstood the situation Gary described. You can't really tell a bunch of acoustic players to turn down?
I've been in that situation several times, at festivals and other events where there's no time for a soundcheck, only a quick linecheck to make sure everything works. There's a limit to how much you can instruct the sound guy in those situations, often you're only scheduled to play 25-30 minutes and you can't spend 5 minutes on an "in-show" soundcheck.
What I do is to just grind my teeth and try to keep focus and play as I would have done if everything had been okay, hoping the sound getting through to the crowd is good.
I don't know about using a compressor to help in those situations, it's not something I would have done personally. Especially if you're not used to using one and it's a part of your regular setup. Better to just learn how to deal with the situation as it is. You'll get used to it after 30-40 shows..  
_________________
"Play to express, not to impress"
Website - YouTube |
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Don Barnhardt
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2009 11:13 am
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| Steinar....I didn't read Gary's second post close enough. Playing an amplified instrument with an accoustic band is probably worse than playing dobro with an electric band. |
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Michael Papenburg
From:
Oakland, CA
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Posted 13 Sep 2009 12:50 pm
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Gary -
When you say "volume spikes", do you mean that your steel is too loud on occasion or are the other instruments too loud in the monitors?
If your amp is being mic'ed and run through the monitors, it could be that the soundperson is putting too much of your instrument in the monitor which makes you want to turn down because you feel too loud. If your on stage volume is reasonable, you may have to get comfortable with asking the soundperson to turn down your instrument in the monitor a bit (or not have it in the monitors at all). The same goes for the other instruments. If everything is too loud, asking them to turn down the entire mix is appropriate.
I've played many shows like what you described. It's really a matter of finding the best way to communicate the most essential things that need to change in the most simple fashion as possible. |
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Gary Meixner
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2009 2:12 pm
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Michael,
I think David D described the situation well, where for whatever reason the dynamic window gets pretty narrow and I am forced to make very very slight adjustments in order to hear myself comfortably. It is not neccesarily that we are playing to loud it is just the mix is off and we didn't have enough time for a proper sound check. Certainly better technique, practice and experience goes a long way to overcoming adverse situations and I am not looking for short cut or to avoid putting in my time. I agree it is the performers responsiblity to make it right for themselves on stage. Tell the sound man what they need and work through the problems quickly and put on a good show. I don't use, or like a lot of effects. I barely use reverb. I do my best to control the attack and volume with good technique. I was just wondering if I was missing something that other had found useful. Thanks to all for your responses.
Gary |
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Michael Papenburg
From:
Oakland, CA
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Posted 13 Sep 2009 8:53 pm
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Gary -
That makes sense. I haven't found that compressors help very much for what you are describing. I don't use a lot of effects either - just some delay and my volume pedal. It seems to me that your current approach of riding the volume pedal is the best way to handle your situation. Either that or hire your own soundman  . |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 14 Sep 2009 12:05 am
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I use a BOSS LMB-3 Bass Limiter/enhancer as first stage - match-box - pre VP, that I switch on when I want a little automatic leveling in certain situations.
Dialed in correctly; it doesn't really compress the attack much, or at all. It can be set to "enhance" the attack, hence the name. But, it at a moderate limiter level and ratio it levels out the overall signal quite nicely - like a well-ridden VP. Think LMB-3 might work well for situations like the one you describe.
Tested out a few regular guitar-compressors for the same effect, and found them useless for steel as they suppressed too much dynamics no matter how I dialed them in. Besides, most of them dampened the low frequencies too much. I returned them all. |
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seldomfed
From:
Colorado
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Posted 14 Sep 2009 1:39 pm
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Hi Gary,
This happens to me more often than not, a festival is a tough thing due to all the variables the sound folks deal with. They have a tough job. I play 6-10 a year.
A compressor won't help. Matter of fact, a compressor is sort of an automatic vol. pedal - you don't need one for steel IMHO. (unless you are going for heavy distortion sounds)
Here's what works for me;
- Introduce yourself to the sound guy, shake his hand, remember his name, tell him you've heard good things about his company, thank him half way thru the set to the audience, and after it's all over. (set him up for success) They are as stressed as you are, and really want to do a good job. And, you'll make a friend. Piss and moan, and your rep. ends up filtering around the sound biz really fast.
- give the sound guys a stage plot (in advance if possible, but bring one the day of the show) This helps with communication and setup. They'll know your names, instruments, placement etc.
- learn to not depend on a monitor mix - less is more. I personally like to 'mix' the band on stage by blending our live sound, and use monitors for vocals only. Augment as needed for instruments.
- tell the sound guy you use a vol. pedal and you'll be very dynamic in the mix on purpose - tell him to not ride the fader!, in sound check give him your full on vol. (then turn it up later ) - many live mixer dudes are not hip to steel.
- Elevate, and point the amp towards you, and the band if you can, so you can all hear it. This does two things - lets you hear it better, and it's not pointing to the sound guy, so he'll likely blend the live mix better.
- turn your amp up a loud as you need to be able to hear your dynamics and blend with the band. Of course keep stage vol. reasonable or the sound guy will have trouble. But don't be shy. Match the vol. of the drums, and other instruments. Takes a few shows under your belt with the same bandmates to get used to this.
- tell the sound guys what sort of mix you want - I always tell them not to be too bass-heavy, too many young guys overuse the subs (too much hip hop in their blood)
- try and get booked on the 'acoustic stage' or whatever you do - so that your getting someone who's hip to mixing your style.
- best solution is, don't play festivals 
_________________
Chris Kennison
Rhythm Cats - steel, guitar, banjo, dobro
Gold Canyon, AZ
www.rhythmcatsshow.com
www.seldomfed.com |
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Twayn Williams
From:
Portland, OR
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Posted 14 Sep 2009 2:07 pm
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seldomfed, your advice should be tattooed on the insides of everyone's eyelids  Excellent.
_________________
Primitive Utility Steel |
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Gary Meixner
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2009 11:37 am
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Chris,
Thank you, you have mentioned several things here that have really got me thinking. Most important is to talk to the sound man and let him know what to expect. Let them know that the steel uses a wide dynamic range and that I often won't be playing at all. There are not that many steel players around and quite often the guys that I see are playing in a roots rock or blues format. I play more of Western Swing style where I am featured and then back off or play a few fills and pad in the background. The other thing that I realized is almost all of my solo work is improvised with very little worked out ahead of time, and despite my best efforts so far, technique probably takes a back seat to finding the right phrase. I think I will work out a frame work for some of my solos ahead of time so I can concentrate on the whole picture more. And most important, just keep on practicing. Thanks again.
Gary |
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Jeff Hyman
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2009 4:01 pm
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In most cases, its the drummer. Especially if they mike all the drums, and have one of those rock-n-roll rack bars around their kit. Here of late, what's acceptable is a simple kit, and maybe a mike in the kick drum. By simple, I mean kick, snare, high hat, 2 rack toms, floor tom and 2 crash cymbals... and on top of that, a set of brushes. As I've gotten older, I refuse to compete for volume on stage.
Of course a Bass or lead guitar can get out of hand too... but it seems to me that a drummer is the hardest to ask to turn down without a negative response. I'm in a band right now where everyone listens to the other pickers... which typically means keeping stage volume in check.
Sound men are notorious for keeping the PSG out of the mix. |
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