If E9 + pedals = A6, why not get an S10?

[Herb Steiner]

Ed
I guess there are some similarities, but I really don't conceive of them as such. Just the way my brain codifies the pedal and its usages.

[Edward Meisse]

James, it seems to me that at the heart of your question is the concept of the A6(C6) non-pedal tuning for lap or console steel.

If you're used to C6 or A6 lap steel you can find it very easy to go A/B down and enter familiar territory. I even had my E9 (strings 9 and 10) tuned to give me a full A6 tuning across 7 strings. The shortcoming is that it turns a pedal steel into a lap steel - there aren't too many ways to enhance that tuning with other pedals or levers - the E-Eb lever for a flat 5 is a good one, though.

With the C6 Pedal steel (as well as the 12-string Universal), there's an incredible range of possibilities for harmonized chord melodies and complex extended chords for comping. Even as a beginner on C6 pedal I've been able to find my way into jazz and swing chord progressions that I simply couldn't begin to find on non-pedal.

Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say, "Me too," here. But I know what you probably mean to say. With the pedal guitar I can, as Jeff Newman used to say, "Grab a handful of strings," on the pedal C6 as opposed to picking two or three to more or less express the heart of the chord. Now if I could only get my stool adjusted to sit comfortably behind this thing.....

[Dan Tyack]

Killer tone, Herb.

As usual....

[b0b]

Killer tone, Herb.

As usual....

Yes it is. Is that your Fessenden?

[Herb Steiner]

Dan, b0b
Thanks for the comps. I cut the samples on 1965 Emmons wraparound. Just an old guitar I have laying around the house here... nothing special.

[Dan Tyack]

Dan, b0b
Thanks for the comps. I cut the samples on 1965 Emmons wraparound. Just an old guitar I have laying around the house here... nothing special.

"What, this old rag? "

I knew it was some kind of obsolete POS that Herb likes to keep around.

[Herb Steiner]

"What, this old rag? "

Hey, good title for an instrumental!

[Robert Harper]

If I played the C6 I would miss the boom of the 10th string That is a note to remeber.

[Daniel Morris]

Thanks for the insight, Herb.
I'm not quite adept enough to enumerate everything the typical P4 offers, but your examples reinforce why I think it's a keeper (even if I'm strictly a U12 player.)

[David Weisenthal]

This is an interesting post that I hadnt seen till Daniel woke it up again. I was wondering about this recently since I acquired a D10 recently and am slowly getting it set up. I found an old B.E. C6 course on ebay which I hope will be a good primer for a new C6 neck player like me. Does this look familiar to any of you guys? From 1983 it says. Great close up of his picks too. The Jeffran stuff was so well done.

[Ian Rae]

It's a weird coincidence that this thread has been revived and has veered towards a discussion of P4 right when the same topic is being discussed on another thread. Or maybe it's deliberate. Or maybe it's Carl Jung's "collective subconscious" in action. May be I should do a poll to find out.

Anyway, to deal with the first question first - some time ago I wondered about building an E9/A6 uni but although it's an obvious and attractive idea, I couldn't figure how to make it work in practice and I accepted that B6 is favoured for a reason.

As for P4, Herb's examples confirm what I suspected - that it really comes into its own in the minor mode. I play uni and there is the problem with there not being enough changes available with 3 up, 3 down - but Rick Schmidt's idea of a half-stop on the A-Bb lever is a light-bulb, nay, a searchlight moment for me! I know that a lot of folks dislike half-stops but I'm fine with them. I shall give it a go when I have time to do the work

[John Spaulding]

This is an interesting post that I hadnt seen till Daniel woke it up again. I was wondering about this recently since I acquired a D10 recently and am slowly getting it set up. I found an old B.E. C6 course on ebay which I hope will be a good primer for a new C6 neck player like me. Does this look familiar to any of you guys? From 1983 it says. Great close up of his picks too. The Jeffran stuff was so well done.

All of the Buddy Emmons lessons are great.

You might want to check out Paul Franklin's C6 Essentials course, too.

This video from Paul's recent seminar in Texas is a nice intro to how Paul teaches the neck: The C6 Tuning

Here's more info on the C6 Essentials Course: C6 Essentials

[David Weisenthal]

Thanks John I'll check it out.

[Greg Cutshaw]

A couple more simple examples of C6 pedal 4 usage:

Example 1:

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Tab/Tab65.wma

Tab:
http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Tab/Tab65.pdf

Example 2:

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Tab/Tab612.wma

Tab:
http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Tab/Tab612.pdf

[Frank Freniere]

Speaking of S-10s, I’ve been messing around with FoBro ebb’s E9 tab of “Misty” in Eb. Some really cool sounds there - not your usual AB pedal mashup.

[Zachary Smith]

This is an interesting post that I hadnt seen till Daniel woke it up again. I was wondering about this recently since I acquired a D10 recently and am slowly getting it set up. I found an old B.E. C6 course on ebay which I hope will be a good primer for a new C6 neck player like me. Does this look familiar to any of you guys? From 1983 it says. Great close up of his picks too. The Jeffran stuff was so well done.

That is on his website with audio clips

http://www.buddyemmons.com/BluesToUse.htm

[Greg Lambert]

Without all the technical raises and lowers of strings , if you want to fatten up a song do it on the C6th.

[David Weisenthal]

Thanks for the weblink Zachary. I needed the audio for these. I'm ebarrased to admit Ive never been on big E's site.

[Herb Steiner]

Without all the technical raises and lowers of strings , if you want to fatten up a song do it on the C6th.

This...

[Fred Treece]

question:

If E9 + pedals = A6, why not get an S10?

short answer:

Probably because now you are at the 6th tuning with pedals IN and restricted.

The C6 neck is with NO Pedals and offers a variety of stuff to add.

This sums up the OP’s concern.

I would frame the question as E9 + E lower lever = B6, since you have the low root on string 10. The answer would be very similar, though you are not quite as restricted in terms of pedal and lever options.

Others have made the point that certain C6 chord voicings can be done on E9, but the grips are comparatively awkward. That seems pretty obvious, even to someone like me who doesn’t play C6. Many 4- and 5-note C6 chord voicings are simply not possible on E9, even if the chord partials technically are.

There has been little mention of Extended E9. The two lower strings and a 4x5 configuration should certainly get you further into C6 territory if you wanted to go there. At least, that’s what I’m planning...

[Greg Derksen]

Dan, b0b
Thanks for the comps. I cut the samples on 1965 Emmons wraparound. Just an old guitar I have laying around the house here... nothing special.

Off topic but.....
That guitar sounds a lot like Jim Loessbergs to my ears,
Thx for posting the clips and samples.

Greg

[Ian Rae]

question:

If E9 + pedals = A6, why not get an S10?

short answer:

Probably because now you are at the 6th tuning with pedals IN and restricted.

The C6 neck is with NO Pedals and offers a variety of stuff to add.

According to the Winston Bible, Ernie Hagar's A & B worked in reverse, so he would have been unrestricted in A6. Don't think I'll change, though.
Is it worth pointing out that B6 is also an E9 tuning but with a sharp 7th instead of a flat one?