Standing vs Sitting and Showmanship vs Comfort

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 30 Jul 2009 4:40 pm

Alvino Rey had the advantage of being the band leader. He was one of a kind. I don't know of any other steel guitarist who has led a big band.
Many Hawaiian guitarists have put together a combo to accompany themselves, but that's a different thing.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 30 Jul 2009 8:59 pm

Alvino Rey had the advantage of being the band leader. He was one of a kind. I don't know of any other steel guitarist who has led a big band.

Yes, Alvino Rey was the top steel player/bandleader of his era.

Robert Randolph would be the man today.

Mark Mansueto · Post by **Mark Mansueto** » 31 Jul 2009 4:09 am

Ben Harper's current band is a 7-piece.

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 31 Jul 2009 7:30 am

I believe I have seen an old video of Leon McAuliffe standing and leading a band.

Doug, the high stool Alvino Rey used there is a good idea.
But, it probably would not work for guitars with knee levers.

Charley Wilder · Post by **Charley Wilder** » 31 Jul 2009 3:26 pm

I like standing when on stage and sitting when I jamming. With both steel and dobro. These days I don't use my D8 or play on stage so it's sitting! I think if you can, standing on stage is more visually effective but that's just my view.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 31 Jul 2009 3:51 pm

Speaking of standing while playing steel...

Have you seen these pics posted in the Steel Players section? Junior Brown's new pedal steel:

AJ Azure · Post by **AJ Azure** » 31 Jul 2009 6:24 pm

Alan Brookes wrote:Alvino Rey had the advantage of being the band leader. He was one of a kind. I don't know of any other steel guitarist who has led a big band.
Many Hawaiian guitarists have put together a combo to accompany themselves, but that's a different thing.

My group goes up to 13 people, could go higher for some shows and is steel fronted. Oh and then there's me fronting a 60 piece orchestra and 40 piece choir for a show.

I'm no Alvino but, trust me there are people doing this and capable of doing it.

Showmanship has nothing to do with body position. I have done both and can do my audience connection either way. I sit now due to disability but, this does not sacrifice my audience connection.

If you want more connection on stage use a swiveling chair. Heck get a chair on wheels and zoom aroud the stage if you have the guitar in your lap.

If you have to stand or even if you want some extra support sitting try this:

http://www.slider-straps.com/quickrelease.html

In combo with a support bar for you electric guys this should be the ideal combo.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 1 Aug 2009 2:43 pm

Peter Jacobs wrote:I always stand when performing -- I feel more energetic, and I can interact more with the other musicians and the audience. Also, I sing lead and harmony, so, it's better for breath and vocal tone. This is why I wear a steel like a Dobro -- I want to be able to move around, turn, move in and out from the mic stand.

Not so Peter, feel your diaphragm whilst standing, feel the tension there, and then feel it whilst seated..
Greater control seated even partially..Unless of course you wish to emulate the operatic types.
I have yet to record a vocalist that could control their voice better whilst standing. I thinks it's a mistaken outlook easily disproved..

As for projecting to an audience whilst seated, the aforementioned stars haven't been told that, and neither for that matter have I..

Dom Franco · Post by **Dom Franco** » 2 Aug 2009 1:03 pm

We shall have to agree to dis-agree, I still feel sitting portrays a more passive appearance than standing.

When recording most vocalists prefer to stand, some because of breath control, and others because they can emote better while standing.

When singing live in concert, most vocalists stand for the same reasons, in addition to being able to move on stage to perform and interact with band and audience.

(There are some exceptions certainly, those who play piano, and notably Perry Como, who prefered a very relaxed seated posture)

One more point...Why is Junior Brown going to the trouble of having his pedal steel's legs and rods lenghtened? HMMMM?

Dom

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 2 Aug 2009 1:45 pm

Us older folks, elderly folks, if you prefer, get
overwhelmed by advertisements from the "Scooter Store' and "Power Chair" store....... to help us in our handicap.

I'll bet some of you engineering minded steel guitar mechanics could device one heck of an elevated "Power Scooter' with steel guitar mounted thereon, that could do wheelies, could spit out bubbles or colored smoke or sparks along with fire crackers, etc., that would have a top cross the stage speed of let's say, 30 mph.

Just think of the craze this might generate!!!!
It could easily put Robert Rnadolph back in the proper perspective............

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 2 Aug 2009 5:12 pm

Dom Franco wrote: When recording most vocalists prefer to stand, some because of breath control, and others because they can emote better while standing.

Having been a record producer for the past 40 years I MAY speak with some little knowledge on the subject.

Dom, don't dismiss my observations so lightly, I've recorded more vocalist that you've had hot breakfasts, (metaphorically speaking of course) and with "All Due Respect"..

Peter Jacobs · Post by **Peter Jacobs** » 2 Aug 2009 6:01 pm

Basil - I appreciate your insights as someone who has recorded so many vocalists and musicians. For me, and I am only speaking for me, I have better breath control and vocal control, power and tone when I'm standing.

I think the entire point of this thread comes down to: whatever works for you is the right thing to do. In my case, standing while performing works for me. Thats the only point I'm making.

John Bushouse · Post by **John Bushouse** » 2 Aug 2009 6:51 pm

basilh wrote:
Dom Franco wrote: When recording most vocalists prefer to stand, some because of breath control, and others because they can emote better while standing.
Having been a record producer for the past 40 years I MAY speak with some little knowledge on the subject.
Dom, don't dismiss my observations so lightly, I've recorded more vocalist that you've had hot breakfasts, (metaphorically speaking of course) and with "All Due Respect"..

Basil , "with all due respect" and coming from two previous generations of classically trained vocalists/choral directors who agree with Dom, we'll have to agree to disagree $:\$

Mat Rhodes · Post by **Mat Rhodes** » 2 Aug 2009 7:52 pm

I alternate between sitting at the steel and drums from set to set. I find that my singing is better and more controlled behind the steel because my back is straighter and I can hold in more air.

With drums, my arms are busier, I tend to hunch over more, and I get out of breath more easily. I still haven't overcome that obstacle.

If I had it to do over again (and one day soon I will), I'm going to be a standing ukuleleist with a guitar strap, headset mic, and an iPod (the new "Tiny Matt"). That other s!*@ is too much work!

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 2 Aug 2009 8:02 pm

John, Hi My Friend, likewise, having come from a long musical background that also included basic reading skills, I think that what you said (If I'm reading it correctly) was:-

"and coming from two previous generations of classically trained vocalists/choral directors who agree with Dom"

But if you READ my post above I DID qualify my statement thus "

Greater control seated even partially..Unless of course you wish to emulate the operatic types.

Thank you for confirming my observation..although "Operatic Types" is a little Patronising, I SHOULD have used the terminology you used, "Classically trained"
It has a much more authoritative ring to it

Dom Franco · Post by **Dom Franco** » 2 Aug 2009 9:30 pm

many pop, rock and country singers do not use their diaphram for breath support, as do the older generation singers, including jazz greats and crooners.

I do use my diaphram because I sing full voice, with a more classic style, but not opera like. I have also recorded in dozens of world class studios, mostly in the LA area, but also in Colorado, Arizona and Oregon. and It has been my observation that most singers usually stand....The first 30 takes... if they get tired they do tend to sit more.

Maybe it's un-necessary but they seem to all believe that standing gives them better breath support.

Dom

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 3 Aug 2009 1:12 am

Peter Jacobs wrote: whatever works for you is the right thing to do.

Yep, it's as simple as that. Those who prefer to sit, sit, and those who prefer to stand, stand. But, since this is an internet forum, simple truths are not so simple because that would be too simple and nobody wants to be perceived as simple... $:\$

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 3 Aug 2009 2:32 am

Still talking about singers and recording, (I know it's a little off the main subject but jazz singers and crooners WERE mentioned) there is a misconception amongst singers that smoke, i.e. that to stop smoking a week or so before an important recording helps the voice to sound better. Not so.

I've found that without fail, those used to smoking sound better if they've just had a cigarette. Take some of the great voices that could loosely be called "Crooners" Nat King Cole, Patsy cline, Jim Reeves, Dean Martin, Frank Sinatra, Lucille Ball, David Bowie, George Harrison, Sammy Davis Jr. Johnny Cash, Marilyn Monroe, Robbie Williams, Madonna, Bono, Gilbert Becaud, Renaldo “Obie” Benson, Enrico Caruso, Rosemary Clooney, Burl Ives, Eddie Kendrick, Julie London, Roy Orbison, Sarah Vaughan, Mary Wells, Faron Young, et al A lage majority of them smoked WHILST recording, most of them also sat to relax the diaphragm, usually on a high stool. (With of course the exception of Enrico Caruso)
OK, I know that some of those are hardly "Crooners" per se', but another definition would be "Non Operatic" I suppose ?

There are a plethora of posts on the web that support this observation I have made whilst recording some pretty talented and famous singers.

On the Hank Locklin album 'Country Hall of Fame' that I produced in 1979, Hank smoked and drank quite copiously. He also sat on a barstool to record.
(RE-20 mike, EMT-140 Plate, Rupert Neve desk, and the 16track Ampex that "Tubular Bells' was recorded on.)

I could tell you the compressor, EQ and reverb settings from that session. My recall is reasonably good, and anyway who could contradict me ?
Not like here where my every post seems to be a target for those afflicted with "The Green Eyed Monster's syndrome"

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 3 Aug 2009 4:27 am

Chris Drew · Post by **Chris Drew** » 3 Aug 2009 4:33 am

There's some singers who insist on recording their vocals lying down!
I'm guessing this wouldn't cut it in a live situation!
Though I did see this once but I think it was an unplanned "herbally-induced horizontalization".

As for the "playing steel guitar standing or seated" thing... well I'll agree with Steinar's last post quotin Mr Jacobs, which hit the nail on the head.
Personally I don't agree with the opinion that playing seated portrays a more passive appearance, IMHO it entirely depends on the artist, audience, venue & genre.

Now, if Ray can get his motorised steel guitar chariot... that I would love to see!

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 3 Aug 2009 9:56 am

Playing just pedal steel, at this point I'm stuck sitting down, but I do feel that's too passive and overlooked by the audience. We are in show biz, so visuals matter, especially in this day and age, let's face it.

I sketched out some ideas a while back for a portable, folding pedal steel stage riser. Back in the day, a lot of night clubs had a riser for the drummer, the steel player, sometimes both. That puts the steel player at about the same "head" level as the other band members, much more visually compelling.

So maybe someday I'll turn that idea into reality. Who wants to buy one?

I swear, there'd be a small market (singing steel players) for a combination: riser/mic stand/light tree stand with colored lights/built-in personal vocal monitor/music stand. That would solve most of the logistic issues I encounter at gig after gig!! Oh, throw in optional heater and fan for seasonal good measure. Clip on tip jar, too.

Dom Franco · Post by **Dom Franco** » 3 Aug 2009 10:14 am

I might buy one! or just make my own...
A riser for pedal steel is a good idea, as long as it is big enough so the instrument or your chair legs don't fall off.

This happened to me when the back legs of my chair fell off the back of the riser, and I barely avoided breaking my neck. Not to mention the insanely loud crash the spring reverb in my amp made, making the fall appear like a comic routine

Dom

Brian LeBlanc · Post by **Brian LeBlanc** » 3 Aug 2009 12:23 pm

I'll take a riser too!

...started play'n a Whole lot more standup steel vs pedal...

Ego?...I play music don't I?

sitting and fading into background helped the steel do the same....

send me your address on a $100 bill for the full report!

Peter Jacobs · Post by **Peter Jacobs** » 3 Aug 2009 2:01 pm

Steinar Gregertsen wrote:
...simple truths are not so simple because that would be too simple and nobody wants to be perceived as simple... $:\$

That's kind of a simplistic view, Steinar. Can you complicate that up a bit for me?

Marty Smith · Post by **Marty Smith** » 8 Aug 2009 9:58 am

I like to stand, I feel lazy if I sit,but I will sit if im playing for someone else. My guitar does not get as high up as I would like it though Im about 6' tall and wear boots at all shows, playing the close neck is harder on fast singles string melodys.All in all I think it makes your band look better, like you mean buisness. Maybe its becuase its my band.

When Leon started his band he said, "you cant front a band sitting down"

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Standing vs Sitting and Showmanship vs Comfort

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