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Topic: Right Hand Position |
Matthew Dawson
From:
Portland Oregon, USA
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Posted 31 Jul 2009 11:31 am |
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I've been working my way through the Jeff Newman right hand alpha course lately and have some questions about right hand/arm position.
In order to keep "the crease" in my right hand over the string I am muting and keep a more upright hand position I need to either:
1. Keep my wrist straight and hold my elbow about 6 inches out from my side and a couple inches forward from my body. This brings my arm in at a bit of an angle over the C6 pickup so my hand can sit right in front of the E9 pickup.
2. Keep my elbow right at my side and bend my wrist forward slightly to acheive the correct position. In this position my arm is in in front of both pickups.
Option 1 feels more natural but that could just be habit. The videos never really show the position of the entire arm. Which of these is better technique?
Also, I notice that he curls the ring finger of the right hand under the hand next to the middle finger, but leaves the pinky out. Is this important? I've had some tendon and joint issues in the past and am trying to spend a lot of time developing good right hand habits.
Thanks,
Matt |
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Tom Campbell
From:
Houston, Texas, USA
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Posted 31 Jul 2009 7:36 pm
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Matt
Keeping your right arm close to yourside, and a slight angle to your wrist allows for a better pick attack. It feels un-natural now...you just have to keep doing it until it becomes a habit. I use to strap my right arm to my side with a belt when I practiced to train my arm to stay positioned.
I have arthritis my right little finger, so I know what your refering to. Hooking the little finger on the 1st string gives you a positioning point to work from. It's not a necessary proceedure...some players do it and others don't...your decision. The right arm position is more important. |
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Matthew Dawson
From:
Portland Oregon, USA
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Posted 31 Jul 2009 10:11 pm
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| Thanks Tom ...... I was afraid you might say that. I guess Mr. Newman says the right position isn't necessarily going to feel comfortable at first. Anyone else concur on this one? |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 31 Jul 2009 10:43 pm
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| I concur. Keep your elbow by your side. Turn your wrist for better palm placement. |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 31 Jul 2009 11:53 pm
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I con-concur. If you need to, hold a magazine under your arm. if you drop it, your arm was cheating you. Take the edge of your hand, place it in front of the pickup a couple inches--like a karate chop, then pretend you have a small ball in the palm of your hand, and let your hand roll over a little and assume about a 45 degree angle(give or take a little, everyone is built different). Bend your wrist if you want so you are relaxed. From there, make your fingers reach to the strings. You can pick block and palm block now. Drill yourself to develope muscle memory, and soon you won't even think of it--you will just do it. Of course, there are a ka-zillion theorys about this.  |
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John Allison
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
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Posted 1 Aug 2009 6:37 am
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I've been working through this same problem.
The last time I went for a lesson, Herb threatened to hog-tie my arm to my side. I started using the magazine trick and have been getting good results. A folded hand towel works better for me, though.
_________________
John Allison
Allison Stringed Instruments
Austin, Texas
www.allisonguitars.com |
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Bob Blair
From:
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Posted 1 Aug 2009 7:33 am
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| My experience has been that relaxation is the key top having my right arm closer to my body, and generally to the effectiveness of my right hand. I'm not squeezing it in - it's just kinda hanging there. I don't think that the relaxed feeling is something that you can expect right away though - one day I just noticed that I had developed a relaxed feeling. |
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Bill Thomin
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 1 Aug 2009 8:16 am
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| I went thru some of Jeff Newman's classes back in the mid 80's. I noticed that Jeff didn't set square to the steel. His right side was closer to the guitar. I've found that at this position, the right arm is easier to keep close to my side and it puts the right hand in the correct posiotion. |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 1 Aug 2009 8:21 am
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| Bill Thomin wrote: |
| I went thru some of Jeff Newman's classes back in the mid 80's. I noticed that Jeff didn't set square to the steel. His right side was closer to the guitar. I've found that at this position, the right arm is easier to keep close to my side and it puts the right hand in the correct posiotion. |
Good point. I sit that way, too, center myself around the 14-15th fret. Kinda angle my chair a little. |
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Carl Williams
From:
Oklahoma
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Posted 1 Aug 2009 8:46 am Right Hand, Arm, Elbow, etc.
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Hello Matt,
Check out the link below for this fella's arm/hand position. IMHO, he has okay tone/technique,
etc.  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyFBIA_HOmE
I'm just sayin'...Good luck with your pickin'! Carl |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Johnny Harris
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 1 Aug 2009 9:32 am
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One could put a pretty thick book between this guy's elbow and side, but he has "pretty fair" results.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbjViunwfvQ
Some would call this right arm position completely wrong. It seems to me that relaxation is the real key.JMHO |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 1 Aug 2009 1:36 pm
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One thing that will make it tough to keep your arm in close, is a guitar that might be a little too tall for you. Also a D10 is a little more of a challenge than an S10, at least that's what I think, for what it's worth.
Johnny, if we could even play a 5th of the stuff Lloyd has forgotten, we'd be rich and famous today, right?  |
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Bobby Burns
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 1 Aug 2009 7:09 pm
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| This is all good advice. Whenever I find I'm having trouble with a fast passage that requires palm blocking, It's usually because I've let my elbow raise up. James's suggestion about the magazine under the elbow is a real good one. Just don't put it up under your armpit. You want it low enough that it will fall with very little movement. You don't need to press your elbow in real tight. Just the weight of your relaxed elbow should keep the magazine from falling. And, don't cheat and rest the magazine on your leg, it has to be free to fall. This same technique is sometimes suggested to fiddlers learning to use a loose wrist and relaxed elbow. It forces you to use more wrist motion. I had not thought about applying it to steel guitar, but it is a really good idea. Thanks James. |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 1 Aug 2009 7:33 pm
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| Bobby, I'm glad to always help, because there are those who helped/are helping me. If you have not had a chance to check out the above link in my previous post, go there, and I'll introduce the man who has a great influence on my playing, along with a couple of other gentlemen. I STILL occasionally catch my elbo trying to cheat me, but it's a far cry from when I began 5 years ago. My right hand will never be as slick as Ricky's, but I've busted it 8 times in my life, too. But who's counting, huh?? |
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Matthew Dawson
From:
Portland Oregon, USA
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Posted 1 Aug 2009 10:47 pm
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Thanks everyone for the replies, links and encouragement.
James, funny you should mention lowering the steel. Just yesterday I received a set of legs and rods to lower my Carter by one inch. Lowering the steel, angling my seat a bit, and moving the seat a little closer to the bridge have all made getting the bend in the wrist a little easier. I'm redoubling my efforts to get it right.
The links inspired me to do a "tour of famous right arms" on youtube. Looks like lots of the greats played with a straight wrist and/or the arm away from their side. Can anyone explain how having your arm closer in and wrist bent help with tone and speed? |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 2 Aug 2009 12:53 am How do the best players do it?
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Hi Matthew,
I think your instincts are correct.
With all due respect to the various instructors and advice mentioned on this thread, I believe that some people are confusing the obvious with the important. How a player holds his/her arm is obvious, but what is important is how his/her fingers are attacking the strings.
Another way to look at it, is are you playing with your arm or your fingers?
That said, if you are holding your elbow a foot away from your body, it is unlikely that you can ever get your fingers in the correct position to attack the strings squarely and accurately. 
But what do I know? The real question is: How do the best players do it?
As Yogi Berra once said, "You can observe a lot by watching". On these video-clips are some of the best players ever:
Ray Price - Heart Over Mind (with Buddy Emmons)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bFub7Sm_iI&feature=related
The Desert Rose Band - Hello Trouble (with Jay Dee Maness)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAENUcHceZ4
George Jones & Tammy Wynette ~ Milwaukee here I come (with Hal Rugg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR0gU8CZk5E
Don Rich and the Buckaroos - Cajun Fiddle (with Tom Brumley)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZIzsDN_fDQ&feature=related
These great players do not appear very concerned about where their arm is positioned. In fact, it looks like all of them would flunk the "magazine test".
However, their fingers all seem to be attacking the strings perfectly--which is the important thing!
Dave |
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Dean Richard Varga
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 2 Aug 2009 1:18 am Right Hand Alpha
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Heelo Matthew
Well I'm going out on a limb, and it will probably break off under me, but here goes!
First of all, I want to say that I have attended Jeff Newman's workshops back in 1978 and 1979.(2 days each)
They were both amazing learning experiences. I would like to say what a wonderful person Jeff was and a great player.
Having said that, I almost gave up steel over right hand technique. Not that I am a great player, but I had to find something that worked for me. Right Hand Alpha did not.
Learning from the greatest players in the world, they all seem to develop or modified methods that may or may not be recognized as the "correct way" Sometimes a little modification and sometimes a lot.
I recently saw a post here in the forum where someone made a comment that J. D doesn't use the right hand alpha method, and he gets around just fine, wouldn't you say?
Which I guess is really the point. Jeff was in my book most certainly an "A" list player. Yet, I know of no other "A" list player that uses Jeff's Right Hand Alpha
If Jeff's technique works for you that is fantastic. I have just noticed that many times when I have seen a PSG's for sale, its a person who never got going on the instrument. Some obstacle or hurdle was never cleared allowing growth and development.Comments made to the effect-"I never quite got a handle playing this instrument"- and there included with the steel guitar and accessories is a copy of right hand alpha.( I am not exaggeration, I have seen this happen a number of times over the years.
Even here in the forum there have even been comments and concerns about-"What will happen if I deviate from the system".
For God Sakes, don't let one system determined your success or failure on this instrument.
For those of you that were ever a fan of Bruce Lee's, or were involved in Martial Arts-you will most likely agree that adherence to one system can be limiting. Or as Bruce said-"it can paralyzes a once fluid man".
In this case , there may be "another way to enlightenment".
"Goon gala goon gala!" -Carl the assistant grounds keeper!
respecfully .
dean |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 2 Aug 2009 3:44 am Re: How do the best players do it?
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| Dave Magram wrote: |
In fact, it looks like all of them would flunk the "magazine test".
Dave |
Awe, yes, Great point Dave. Let's draw this into perspective.
First of all, You could look at the clip I put up of Ricky. He is not going to hold a magazine either. So the point I'm emphasising is not to do anything more than avoid a "fly away elbo". Don't go overboard--the "magazine trick" is just an awareness excersise. The magazine excersise just helps you THINK about posture and helps you develope good habits. There is a "zone" of where you want to be to keep good posture, but ultimately, you will develope your own style. So don't put more on it than just an excersise.
The above links show awesome players with awesome positions, but you must also acount for camera angle. We are all built different. You will find your ultimate "way to be" as an individual. Chair time and hours of practice are what put the greats where they are--how much more we can learn from them.
The "magic bullet" that will transform you into the steel player you want to be IS hours and hours of practice. Practice good posture along the way. Steel guitar is a new instrument, as compared to centuries of refinement such as violin bowing technique blah blah. Don't go overboard. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 2 Aug 2009 4:21 am
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| Quote: |
| For God Sakes, don't let one system determined your success or failure on this instrument. |
I'll second that. Regardless of technique, just play that thing.
It can be good to practice various techniques like the "RHA" and whatnot for longer periods early on though, to check out if they work and what they work for. May make it easier to develop ones own personal picking techniques as one progresses.
Personally I took Jeff's "right hand alpha" as far as I possibly could, after having used "the claw" for half a decade or so. Taping up my ring and little finger to keep them in position and out of the way, and practiced picking sideways. It worked wonders once my fingers "memorized" this pretty awkward finger-setting - making the taping redundant, but, it didn't work for everything.
The "right hand alpha" became one technique of many, and most of all it affected how I shape my picks. The "RHA" technique also helped me find a naturally relaxed way to hold and move my arm and hand for picking up and down the entire neck.
In practice I pick to get a certain sound that goes with what I'm playing at the moment, which means twisting arm, hand and fingers in and out of all sorts of positions without thinking about it, and I couldn't care less which "technique" I seem to be using at any one time as long as I hit the strings right and get the sound I want.
Precision, speed and sound is what matters. We are all shaped different, so how one makes it work is up to the individual player. It is important to find relaxed basic positions to pick from. If ones right hand tires quickly one is too tense, and the chosen technique and/or position may be causing it. |
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Rick Winfield
From:
Pickin' beneath the Palmettos
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Posted 2 Aug 2009 4:41 am blocking
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Having poor computer skills, I must resort to THIS, to pose my question.
In Winstons "bible", on page 65, (Buds Bounce),the 2nd half of the 7th measure, involves "some " open & barred strings, at fret 3. After 2 years I still cannot "block" correctly on this passage in tempo. Who recommends what type of blocking to use on this?
Thanks to you all
for tolerating my simple & obtuse question
Rick
PS:Being self taught, 90% of what I know on PSG, I've obtained from the Forum masters. |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 2 Aug 2009 4:59 am
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"what works for you" can be a misleading statement, too. I've seen the other extreme---"that doesn't work for me"--when in reality, looking into it, the person saying that put very little effort into it and just quit to go do what they deem as easy. They actually approached the project with a defeated attitude. They were beat before they ever started. The "method" becomes their excuse--It doesn't work for me. If you really want to, you CAN get it done.
None of us are born accomplished steel players, therefor we need to rely on what those who came before us have established as "what works". It takes a ton of effort to "make it your own". You will develope your own style in the end. |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 2 Aug 2009 5:01 am Re: blocking
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| Rick Winfield wrote: |
Having poor computer skills, I must resort to THIS, to pose my question.
In Winstons "bible", on page 65, (Buds Bounce),the 2nd half of the 7th measure, involves "some " open & barred strings, at fret 3. After 2 years I still cannot "block" correctly on this passage in tempo. Who recommends what type of blocking to use on this?
Thanks to you all
for tolerating my simple & obtuse question
Rick
PS:Being self taught, 90% of what I know on PSG, I've obtained from the Forum masters. |
What blocking have you tried? You might need to look at your hand position carefully and see if any improvements might correct the problem? It may be that simple. |
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Tom Campbell
From:
Houston, Texas, USA
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Posted 2 Aug 2009 6:29 am
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| Might want to view Joe Wright's video "Secrets of the Wright Hand" and "Blocking Basics". They show Joe's flat-hand method of picking and blocking. Some how his method always seems to be over looked. His methods are just as valid as Newmans (personal preference).I think its a case of people not being aware of his training material. |
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Larry Scott
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 2 Aug 2009 6:41 am the perfect right hand ?
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