a rant...well...kind of...

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 15 Jul 2009 2:48 pm

okay...this may be a rant, maybe not...or just an observation of sorts...i play banjo and pedal steel...SOME acoustic guitar when i am writing a song mostly...and i am kind of frustrated by how when you aren't a guitar player, there is the sentiment in some circles that you are supposed to "sight read" the hands of guitar players at all positions up the neck and all...i have gotten pretty good at it from repeated exposure and jams and being put onstage with people i don't know their music at all and having to make up stuff on the spot based on the key, chords...etc...i guess what i am saying is i wonder what a 6 stringer who didn't play steel would do if i was leading a song and had the mentality that he should be able to look at my bar/pedal/lever position and just "know" what chord i was playing...i realize that being able to read a guitar player's hands is all part of the process of being an excellent musician, especially since most of the time, the guitar is kind of the center of the music in a country/country rock/rock with a country "flavor"...but it is the mentality of the guitar player who assumes that i'm just supposed to "know" what he is doing and gets annoyed when he uses something other than a basic chord shape up the neck, or in some cases, just knows the shape and not the name of the chord...can you see what i am getting at? don't get me wrong, i love the guitar, but this is something that i have noticed about playing music with some guitar players and it kind of rubs me the wrong way...and it has happened with guys who have shared the stage with top names that i have jammed with...what are your thoughts? do you guys experience this?

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 15 Jul 2009 3:00 pm

Yes, I used to do that a lot. Anymore, I listen to the bass intently and depend on my ear, experience and theory to help predict the changes.

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 15 Jul 2009 3:13 pm

yeah, i am learning to do that as well...i just don't get that kind of mentality where someone is running a jam and it behooves everyone to be playing the same progression LOL

...and the guitar player thinks it is better if he shows me the chords on his guitar rather than walk over to me and tell me the chords or the progression or the numbers of the chords and what key it's in...which would be a lot clearer and easier for both of us...and is something that he will do for the bassist...but for me it's kind of like a game of "hey lets see if he can read my hands..." most of the time i can do it but occasionally i will run into a snag, and my ear tends to get me out of trouble, especially if i don't know what the chords are and nobody has given me the key beforehand...that one is always fun...especially in front of an audience and having to solo...

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 15 Jul 2009 3:19 pm

I hear you. Been there....done that....I think they're afraid you might play something better than they will, so it's a race to try and keep you off guard. A game to keep you slightly behind.

Most professional musicians have a very different attitude however.

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 15 Jul 2009 3:27 pm

i hear you...to say that it doesn't make me feel like these guys look ->

is an understatement...so i think i will wait a few months before i go back there...i think my practice time is better spent working on other things besides getting someone to look past their ego...

Bryan Daste · Post by **Bryan Daste** » 15 Jul 2009 4:58 pm

Sounds like laziness and/or lack of theory knowledge on the part of the guitarists. Usually if someone asks me to sit in, I say, "I'd love to - do you want to write out charts for a couple tunes?" After an awkward silence, they usually do just that! Now the accuracy of the charts is a different story...

Larry Bressington · Post by **Larry Bressington** » 15 Jul 2009 5:06 pm

I find the 'key 'with my 8th string by playing single note's [ looking for the Tonic tone] very quietly if needed on a strange song where i haven't the foggiest idea, like the other night i was in the middle of a 'Paul mc Cartney' jam, and eventhough I am English, i have not studied English pop/rock. Mostly 'American Country'
yes, i was a nerd growing up as i was told,, ha ha!! AND.. i was lost the other night, where i was exspected to excell!

To say the least, i dropped out until i got a nodd for a 'solo' then, i had already mapped out the format in my head and took it from there.
'
Ideally on 'steel' you want to be as 'audible' and less 'visual' as poss, but that is not always possible, a player cant help looking over to see bar chords sometimes we have got so used to our eyes.
Isolation is good practice!!

Most bands have a code of some sort.

Intro 11 55 11 'key of C harlie' Count of 5
1-2-3-4-1

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 15 Jul 2009 5:21 pm

yeah, this guy has a jam that attracts all sorts of different levels...jammy stuff...i go to keep my chops up and to meet new players...it is always something with him, but one thing he consistently does is to make me read his hands...and then he gets irritated if i don't play because i can't read them...as if i am supposed to play guitar also...i'm not afraid to hit an off note, but the constant guesswork is kinda disrespectful to me given that he will freely tell the bassist what the progression is...i just think it is kind of lame that this happens...especially when i give him a lot of room to do his thing and be the guitar hero...maybe it is his way of trying to make me look like i don't know what i am doing?

Larry Bressington · Post by **Larry Bressington** » 15 Jul 2009 5:24 pm

Chris, i would ask him for a set list!
Exsplain to him that you cannot 'excel' when you are 'johney on the spot'
The Steel guitar is very demanding,and [some players haven't a clue how hard it is,] he owes you that Chris and you could bone up some serious 'chops' at home given enough work tape's and rehersal time, jamming isen't easy on the fly!

If he wont listen and be forgiving and receptive, then he is on some competition EGO trip, and my good freind, i have seen plenty o that!

I will say this:
A jam that is 'hard' is good, remember the songs or write them down , and then go learn them at home, so next time you will really have a good hold on them foreign songs that you may not have played before, i do this all the time, it's a bit o pressure at the time, but exspanding has a cost, then i go buy the 'I tunes' and learn the song.
It has really helped me stay employed.
'Crazy arms' to 'Crazy people' [ billy currington]

An example would be this;
ROUTE 66, I'd have to go and revise the parts to make the song complete, fill's etc, then i'd work up a 'solo' with my rythum machine in case i got a 'Nodd'
Man... Sometime's i hate that!!!

If that dont work, BLOW HIS MIND, or MOVE ON!!

Glen Derksen · Post by **Glen Derksen** » 15 Jul 2009 5:41 pm

If this guy is smart enough to play guitar, then he should be able to figure out that a six string and a steel guitar are two different animals. Maybe he just needs to be reminded.

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 15 Jul 2009 6:14 pm

thing is...all the progressions are made up by him, on the spot...and all the lyrics are too...usually is a lot of fun and yeah, there are a few repeat songs (well, kinda)...but most of the time it is off the cuff type jams with him at the healm laying down the progression...we have already had the talk about why i will stop playing (when i don't know what the chords are or when there is too much going on already and anything i would do would be too much...) and these two reasons are what most quality musicians would do...if you don't know what the chords are, don't play (steven stills told someone i know that is what he expects from a guy who doesn't know the song) and most people would consider him "a legend"...i'm over the BS and going to spend my time practicing...and if he ever has to come up onstage, i may just politely ask him if he sight reads pedal steel chords...

or maybe sometime i might ask him if he has ever sat down at a steel and if he would like to try it...

most hot shot guitarists have a whole different perspective on the steel once they have to operate both hands, both legs, both feet AND their brain...all at the same time

.....yeah....thats what i'm talkin about!

Larry Bressington · Post by **Larry Bressington** » 15 Jul 2009 6:24 pm

He's An 'EGO-MANIAC' Chris,
Loose him!!
Leave the stage if he is one of those that get's up and wreaks havoc for 30 minutes [leaving musicians totally in the dark during his performance] and then walks out the door!!

Has he ever looked over at you and asked;
Chris;
Is there something you would like to play tonight???

Hit some more 'Jam sessions' You'll be alright!!!

Bo Borland · Post by **Bo Borland** » 15 Jul 2009 6:29 pm

I can read guitar, bass, mandolin and keys. I think it is a good thing to learn and it helps train your ears.
I did find out the hard way that no one at most bluegrass jams can play or read anything but first position chords off a guitar.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 15 Jul 2009 6:31 pm

Well, I think the issue isn't just about being able to read his hands. More importantly (IMHO) is knowing in advance where the song is gonna go next, so you can develop lines and ideas that have more than a one-chord framework. Sure I can see (and hear) that he's playing a G chord, but I'd like to know if we're gonna go to the IV or to the V chord next, or maybe a IIIm or a VIm? What I play during the G chord will be different depending on what it's going to lead to. Simple example: if it's going from a I to a IV, I may well play a I7 to take us to the IV. But if it's going to anything else, a I7 will sound out of place (and downright misleading). So I can't wait for the guy's hands to change before I know what the next chord is going to be, or I'm just gonna play stupid, simple lines that go nowhere and don't add much to the music.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 15 Jul 2009 7:09 pm

I just play stupid, simple lines that go nowhere and don't add much to the music if I'm in doubt.

I think I grok what you are saying though.

I always get a kick out of local guys that forward my comments to local celebrities to "burn me" I guess. First, I hope they read them, if I give a crap at all, and second I usually don't..

Got an older fella named B0881 @18son. He's played everywhere, with everybody. Just ask him.

Typically and through the thirty years I've seen and heard him, he'll go through a bunch of subs over a "standard". They AREN"T the chords to the song. Not by ANY stretch. Kind of like the old standard Greensleeves thing where you play ANY chord with the melody note in it, with enough conviction, and the coffee house crowd under a thick veil of smoke sighs/grunts "Yeah Man, that's really happening... uuhh...".

A GREAT EXAMPLE is Mr Rick Schmidts Star Spangled Banner I think it was. i LOVED IT. However I think any adherence to traditional chord changes was strictly accidental. His piece was MEANT to be "outside". Kind of like his Porkpie Hat that in my mind and others is SHEER MASTERPIECE. ( I hope it was Rick..)

Well it's OK to do that. WHen the agreement is made that it's "way out", or a "check out these subs" kind of thing.

However to stand off, turn away and make faces because the other musicians "aren't following him" is a little off base.

I'd work with Neil Grandstaff, here on the other hand, a beer joint soulmate of mine.. He'd say "Two-Five EVERYTHING". Hell, we'd "two-five" the two and the five of a two five, just to see if we'd get away with it... then we'd "two-five THAT.." Loads of fun. You're Cheatin Heart meets Autumn Leaves, Hey Bartender in Byrdland...

I think there has to be an agreement on some basic chord structure, OR it is just gonna suck.

I played Sleepwalk with a local Bass Legend. D@##y $. We got to the F-Fm part and he played F-Ab. I told him that we're just minoring the F. I told him it was my song, and I'd rather he just play a Fm. I doubt it will ever come up again. Not if I can help it. It was MY song. MINE.

I find that the safest note to play is the ninth note. It can be almost anything to any usual chord. A thirteenth I suppose in a more sofisticated venue....

Far as a guitarist or anybody else throwing anything but the most standard "nite life" subs in and without cues, thinking it makes him look smarter, or "sound better". It doesn't.

If it is B0881 @18son, tell him you're not gonna let him get away with it any more than they do in Portland...

Just kidding Bobby..

BBWWWAAAaahaahaha

EJL

Keith Junot · Post by **Keith Junot** » 15 Jul 2009 7:24 pm

Chris , i am left handed and when i play guitar i always hear a player saying that they can't figure out what i'm doing because my guitar is "upside down" well , whatever happened to a good pair of ears ? when i work with an Artist , and i am not familiar with their music , i listen up , pay attention then go in . A lot of times a Songwriter or Artist does'nt even know the changes to their own songs , thats when bandstand experience comes in handy , imho ... Keith

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 15 Jul 2009 7:39 pm

right on jim...

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 15 Jul 2009 7:52 pm

yeah keith, i totally agree and most of the time, my ear does pretty well, at least people tell me all the time that i have a great ear...but this one guy does this stuff to me all the time and the chords i get lost on are the ones that only jazz guys and people who love the non usual shapes use...but yeah, a good trained ear is sometimes all you have to go on...recently i was onstage doing a benefit show for a radio station that was broadcasting live...and one of hawaii's top stars had stopped by the gig (different guy than i was talking about before)...he wanted to play and asked me to sit in...cool...we only got three songs in before the end of the show, and he was really cool and told me (with his voice) what the progressions were for the first two songs, but forgot on the third one...which as luck would have it, he called upon me to solo...luckily i was able to pick out one of the chords as a C chord quietly with the amp turned waaay down and my ear down next to my picking hand, and i guessed correctly that the song was in C...

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 15 Jul 2009 7:58 pm

p.s. I should have said above that, if you have a good bass player, you should have a pretty good idea of where the chords are heading (walking up to the IV, walking down to the V, walking down to a VIm, etc.) Listening closely to a good bassist will be better, and give you information about the upcoming changes sooner, than waiting for the guitarist's hands to change position.

Stu Schulman · Post by **Stu Schulman** » 15 Jul 2009 9:39 pm

Chris like Jim Cohen stated a good bass player that leads you into the chord changes is a bonus,when I play a bass gig I always try to do that.I've been following Keith Junot so long now that I can actually understand his chord shapes upside down left handed and tuned righty.We have a friend who made a big stink at a jam session before the song even started about play some chord and I played the exact same chord as he was showing me but in a different position and he couldn't deal with it,He said that's not the same...I said it sounds the same to me and every over idiot in the room don't try to give me a guitar lesson now and just play yer little freakin song.Eric West Right On!.Chris it sounds like the guy is trying to trip you up,and is screwing with you,Keith Junot has a whole book's worth of ways to get even...You have to do it on the break when the guy can't see you.Stu

Roger Edgington · Post by **Roger Edgington** » 16 Jul 2009 6:56 am

I depend mostly on ears and anticipation. I can usually pick up and learn a song very quickly and play safe fills. I can get the key right off. As long as everyone else,especially the bass,is playing the same correct chords I'll usually do ok. The hard part is not knowing signature licks and specialty things or real difficult chord changes in an unfamiliar song. If the bass player don't know it then I might rewrite it and they can follow me. hehe

John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 16 Jul 2009 1:57 pm

I think the whole solution lies with experience. A steel player, who, is also a guitar player, should be able to follow the hands of a guitar player, but, having experience playing is a big plus. We've all played most, if, not all of the country standards. There's not too much deviation with those tunes. But, you still have to have a good ear to hear if somebody adds a minor or augmented chord, where it's not intended. On the other hand, a guitar player, who has never played steel, will never be able to follow a steel player without previously knowing the chords of a tune. There's just too many variables on a steel to play chords in different positions. A steel player, playing a 6 string guitar, has a better chance of following the designated steel player. He should be able to look down and see where the bar is and what pedals you're using. But, again, experience is the key factor.

P.S.- We've used substitute bass and guitar players in our band, on occasion and it's a real pain, when they don't know where the song is going. I wind up leading them into the next chord or phrase with my steel and I hate that immensely. It takes away from what I really wanted to play and creates a lot of monotony. I've found that, simple I,IV,V tunes were the easiest for them to play. Again, experience and a good ear rise to the top.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 18 Jul 2009 12:30 am

Sometimes I have to recognize and follow the wrist and the back of the guitarist's hands! This being when the stage position of the steel is behind the frontman.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 18 Jul 2009 6:24 am

I just play a full chromatic scale---a couple of the notes in that scale are bound to be right!!

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 18 Jul 2009 7:58 am

Well,,, you could put your bar down, and finger the exact same chords he's playing!

I was takin' a break in an Akron studio, and was noodlin' around on Satch's "Day At The Beach." A lovely two-handed tapping solo guitar piece. Not too hard, but very pretty. The engineer took my guitar, and played the same song, but I noticed that he was missing a harmony note. I said, "Add a G# on the 16th fret, and it makes the E chord sound complete." He gave me a blank look! He's a very good guitarist, keyboardist and a fabulous singer. Completely self taught, by ear. He does not know the notes of the scale, nor the names of any chords, nor can he tell you what key he's playin' in. But,,, he's a nice guy, so I don't give him any s**t!

Well,,, he's also 1/2 owner of the studio,,, so,,,,,,