WARNING C6 S10 buyers

Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 15 Jul 2009 9:07 am

I won't mention the company. I currently believe that this problem with my guitar is a result of a general ignorance on the part of the steel guitar community in general about C6 pedal steel. And I consider that I have learned my lesson the expensive way.

When I had my guitar made, the manufacturer mentioned that they make their single neck C6 guitars so that they can easily be converted to E9 in case you decide it's not for you and you want to sell it. That sounded like a good idea at the time. I wasn't sure that I'd take to pedal guitars. I have had a long love affair with lap steel.
Well, I LOVE pedal steel. I never want to play lap steel again. And I have bought myself a great guitar......except.....
The pedals are where the E9 pedals would go. I really have to stretch to reach the 4th and 5th pedals with my right foot. That means that eventually I will need to have the pedals moved or I will have to buy another guitar. So placing the pedals to facilitate a potential sale have NECESITATED either the sale or an expensive overhaul.
I strongly advise ANYONE who buys an S10 C6 to buy an S10 C6. Do not take the half measure of having it set up for easy E9 conversion. I VERY STRONGLY ADVISE ALL MANUFACTURERS TO REFUSE TO MAKE C6 S10 GUITARS WITH EASY CONVERSION IN MIND. This feature limits its viability as a C6 instrument.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 15 Jul 2009 9:40 am

Not to start a ruckus, but why would the pedals be placed any differently with a single neck E9th or C6th tuning?

Doesn't matter what the tuning is, you still have to be able reach all the pedals, don't you?

John Polstra · Post by **John Polstra** » 15 Jul 2009 9:47 am

Donny, he wants to press his 4th and 5th pedals with his right foot. That's why it's a problem.

John

Benton Allen · Post by **Benton Allen** » 15 Jul 2009 10:14 am

Well Ed,
Sorry you're having difficulty with your new guitar, but since there is only one S10 - C6th pedal steel guitar built every 20 years or so in this country, I doubt this is going to be a problem.
Good luck!
Benton

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 15 Jul 2009 10:17 am

Heck, I sometimes press my *3rd* pedal with my right foot, and always do with #5 (granted this is on a 9-pedal Fender without a RKL, but even if there was one I'd still be able to reach just fine; in fact I tested that function on the ZB I just got in for some future reconfiguration and it was fine.

Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 15 Jul 2009 11:11 am

Actually, I have just begun to seriously try this. I may eventually work it out. Right now I can reach number 5 ok. Number 4 is a big strectch that I don't know if I can do or not. Maybe with work my leg will find its way over there without my knee activating one of the RKLs. Pedal 3 is out of the question. It could also be my unusual body shape. I have a very long torso and pretty short legs. I really wish these pedals were about 1 to 1 1/2 pedals to the right. And/or maybe repositioning the KLs to fit a repositioning of the pedals.
The manufacturer in question told me that orders for S10 C6 guitars are on the rise. But yes, they are still few and far between. Maybe a real C6 player will chime in here and tell me how wrong I am about this whole thing and that the solution to the problem is.........that'd be great. Perhaps Mr. Cohen or Mr. Lee.

Jon Gottesman · Post by **Jon Gottesman** » 15 Jul 2009 12:13 pm

I have a single neck C6 Fessenden specially made for me last fall. I have 4 pedals (#'s 5-8) set up on the left side along with 4 knee levers (2 on each side). I have no problems using my left foot on the pedals so why not just use your left foot as if it were an E9 neck. I suppose there might be a problem if you want to use both left and right feet but I have enough going on with my right foot on the volume pedal and the knee levers to deal with the pedals. By the way I enjoy both non-pedal and pedal equally and find that playing one makes me better on the other.

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 15 Jul 2009 12:17 pm

Edward, I'm not a real C6th player, but I wonder what changes are on your pedals 4 and 5. And why do you need to use them at the same time you are using the left foot on other pedals? Some players have moved a pedal change to a lever, for example pedal 3 (pedal 6 on a D-10}, or 4 (pedal 7 on a D-10). If you want to go quickly from pedal 2 (5 on a D-10) and 4 (7 on a D-10) it's easier if 4 is changed to a lever. I would keep you right foot on the volume pedal and learn to use only the left foot on the pedals. If there is a change that you feel must be used in conjunction with another pedal, one that you can't reach with one foot, put that on a lever. It seems to me that trying to do something totally different then 95% of other players, just makes it more difficult. Good luck.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 15 Jul 2009 12:33 pm

"I have a very long torso and pretty short legs."

Are you related to Stringbean?

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 15 Jul 2009 2:21 pm

I understand your problem and admit it is one I would not have forseen myself. I suppose I'm so used to the C neck pedal postions on a double neck that an impairment with right foot access to the pedals would not have occurred to me, I'm afraid. Sooner or later, you need both feet for some combinations.

I don't see a simple solution to your quandary though. HMMMMM!

Maybe move pedals 4 & 5 to the right of the pedal board leaving the others to the left. A pretty big job and more hdwe., pull rods etc. Move all pedals to the right, a bigger job with even more hdwe. required. Put a problem pedal pull on a KL for combinations. Or learn to play it the way it is if possible.

I'd be interested to hear the solution when you get it all worked out.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 15 Jul 2009 2:48 pm

Most S-10's have the pedals too far to the left for my comfort. It seems to me that if you have 5 pedals, they should be in positions 2-6 or even 3-7 when compared to an 8-pedal D-10.

But that's just my preference. Guys with longer legs might prefer the stretch.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 15 Jul 2009 3:13 pm

John Polstra wrote:Donny, he wants to press his 4th and 5th pedals with his right foot. That's why it's a problem.

John

Okay, the complaint makes sense now. (Sorry 'bout that.) I sometimes forget that most other C6th players still have to do the "two-footing" thing from time to time.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to tell anyone who wanted a single-neck built to ask the manufacturer to start the pedals in the #3 position.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 15 Jul 2009 3:40 pm

Love my old ShoBud. 6 in the middle, and 2 right knees.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 15 Jul 2009 3:45 pm

Edward--my first reaction was that you were being whiny and that you should have researched it better before ordering but after some thought I take that back.
I'd say that this is a valuable thread and should be taken seriously. There just isn't much body of knowledge on the subject and there are indeed a couple of good points to consider.
I place less value on the resale thing---I just can't worry about that when I'm buying something. Perhaps that makes me foolish but so be it.
Your issue should be on the checklist for people thinking of buying an S-10 C6. Do you want pedals in the E9 position or do you want your C6 pedals to the right (the D-10 position, if that's your point of reference, or just conceptually, accessible to the right foot for two-footing)?

I don't blame the steel maker--he's not your mentor.

On the bright side, you are contributing to the knowledge base here. Good job.

Any other points that should be considered for S-10 C6 PSG?

Paddy Long · Post by **Paddy Long** » 15 Jul 2009 5:02 pm

Ed - another point to ponder, since you have now discovered how much you love pedal steel, I'm picking that you will eventually want to have a crack at E9th so my suggestion would be to get yourself a D10!
Convert the S10 to E9th and sell it! (which the builder has catered for)

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 15 Jul 2009 6:04 pm

Ed, I'm guessing that this guitar was not exactly specially built to make "easy conversion to E9" possible, as you describe (or as they described it to you), but basically WAS built to be an E9 guitar (same as all the rest of their S-10 guitars) and then they strung it up for C6 and put the changer rods where they need to be for the C6 changes. But didn't move any pedals or KLs. Of course, I can't say for sure, but given how small is the market for S-10 C6, I kinda doubt anybody would purpose-build one, except for themselves.

Having said that, I do own such a guitar, which started life as an E9 with 3+5 and which I had converted (thanks Russ Wever, then at Scotty's) to S-10 C6. It still has 3+5 and all in their usual (i.e., E9) places. I don't play it too often because it doesn't have all the changes that I've come to like using and because on any given gig nowadays I also need my E9 neck. And, I should add, I've never gotten comfortable with using two feet on C6 anyway, so that's not been an issue for me, even on my D-10 with 9+8. So, yes, I can play my S-10 C6 guitar, the way I play (one-footed), but it's missing stuff I'd want to use, so I rarely do and will probably offer it for sale soon. But not to you! LOL.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 15 Jul 2009 6:16 pm

I know your seating position would be thrown off, but I guess the two right knee levers could be moved to the left.

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 15 Jul 2009 8:07 pm

Ed, I play a Universal tuning (7 and 5) and didn't like the stretch my right leg had to make to reach the "C6th" pedals. I lower my Es on RKL to get into 6th mode, but that still didn't get my right leg in a good position to use pedals 6 or 7.

So I moved all the pedals one position to the right, and moved the left knee levers one position to the right, also.

Now, all the pedal and knee lever combinations, whether "C6th" or "E9th", are very easy to reach.

In your case, I think it would be most cost effective to have the copedant changed to better suit your physique, rather than buy another guitar.

Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 15 Jul 2009 11:44 pm

Thanks for everybody's comments.

Jon, I don't blame the manufacturer either. Not only are they not my mentors but I think there aren't many people around who would have thought of this anyway. Most people play D10 guitars. If they play S10, they play E9. Single neck C6 guitars, to the extent they existed, went out of style over 50 years ago. And that's why I started the thread. And I will politely and discreetly bring this to the attention of the manufacturer. This is a significant problem that both manufacturers and players should be aware of.
Jim, the trouble I'm having is getting the left foot from pedal 2 to pedals 4+5 or pedal 5 alone with sufficient speed. Also, it can be quite a trick to cover 4+5 with the left foot and then tilt off the 4. It's not out of the question that I can find a way to make this work. I've thought that I may be able to cover 1-4 with the left foot and only 5 with the right when necessary. But better pedal placement would have made the guitar easy to play instead of a challenge to figure out.
b0b, your suggestion looks good. Would that call for different knee lever placement?

Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 16 Jul 2009 12:03 am

Jon Gottesman wrote:I have a single neck C6 Fessenden specially made for me last fall. I have 4 pedals (#'s 5-8 ) set up on the left side along with 4 knee levers (2 on each side). I have no problems using my left foot on the pedals so why not just use your left foot as if it were an E9 neck. I suppose there might be a problem if you want to use both left and right feet but I have enough going on with my right foot on the volume pedal and the knee levers to deal with the pedals. By the way I enjoy both non-pedal and pedal equally and find that playing one makes me better on the other.

Actually, I do still play non pedal. And you're right. One does feed into the other. But I really do like the pedal guitar alot more. Almost as much as I like to egzagerate!

At this time, playing with just the left foot seems an unlikely solution to my problem. But time will tell. As I said earlier, better pedal placement would have made this an easy guitar to play rather than a challenge to figure out.

Scott Howard · Post by **Scott Howard** » 16 Jul 2009 3:22 am

After many years of playing I am having to switch feet or quit playing. I completely reversed my guitar and as far as the pedals go , and I use the pedals with the right foot only as they are all the way to the right of the guitar. It has taken several weeks to get somewhat used to it but I think it is going to work.
If you are just starting to use the pedals , give it a little extra time as it may seem strange at first . This is the second time I have done the pedals to the right swap. The first time I gave up after a few days. This time I packed all the other normal guitars in their cases and have only been playing the oddball half lefty guitar and it is working.
Good luck

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 16 Jul 2009 5:15 am

I had a S10 C6th Carter custom built in 2001 with five pedals. They came centered, and I had to play it for a long time to figure out what I wanted. The Carter has room for 9 pedals, and these were in position 3-7. I recently sent it to Carter to have them moved to positions 4-8, because of the two-foot thing. I wanted to be able to play 2+4, 3+5, 3+4, 4+5, and with some other new setup changes some other combinations may come into play.

It's not minor changes - to move the pedals to the right, you need to have all the pedal rods shortened and rethreaded, and because the manufacturer has the stats they can do it faster than another repairman, who'd have to measure each one - at $50hr shop time. It would be possible to do this without shortening the rods by adding barrel nuts to the rods (making the change reversible) but it would be sloppy engineering - I know I'm gonna like it. Hurry Carter!

Ray, Ray, go team go etc.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 16 Jul 2009 6:23 am

Swapping P4 with P8 (your P1 and P5) would solve most of your problem, I think. I know players who do that, and also have the P7 changes on a lever for maximum flexibility. Check out http://b0b.com/tunings/gleason.htm for example.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 16 Jul 2009 7:08 am

I'll have to play my new setup for at least a month or so, but I think I've found a way to get everything without giving up anything (yeah right!) I'll post it when I'm sure. I spent a long time working on the combination possibilities & the transitions from different engagements, retuning individual strings and writing out chords and such. I try not to make trivial changes, in much of anything anymore.

I need* to be able to lower my G to F and my 2nd string E to D (high G tuning, mmm yes) plus the Emmons A's and C's raised and lowered a 1/2 step. The problem I see with Jerry Gleason's tuning is that he's raising and lowering the A's and C's with all different knee and pedal assortments - it's more efficient to use a knee for each (LVL included, natch).

*(actually I could play a three-string non-pedal if I had to, I'm just greedy. "Guitar George, he knows all the chords...")

admin · Post by **b0b** » 16 Jul 2009 8:01 am

Just to be clear, I was responding to to Edward's original topic, not David's reply. Sorry for the confusion.

Here's another example that doesn't require two-footed playing:
[tab]
LKL LKV LKR P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 RKL RKR
D
E +F -Eb
C +C# -B +D
A -Ab +Bb +B +B
G -F#
E -Eb +F
C +C# +C#
A -Ab +Bb +B
F -E +F#
C -A +D [/tab]

This approach isn't unheard of. U-12 players typically have 7 pedals, and they have the P8 changes in the P4 slot.

Edward, what knee levers do you have now?