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Topic: Why does my only knee-lever lower my E and Eb? |
Ian Sutton
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 9 Jul 2009 6:48 am |
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The stock set up on my Fender Pedal Steel student model has only one knee lever (RKR i believe), but it seems to lower an odd combination of strings. Lowers my low E to Eb and my high D to Eb to D. Does anyone know why this is? And should I consider changing it to lower something like both E's? Thanks!
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 9 Jul 2009 7:01 am
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That is what the Sho-Bud setup was with one knee lever on the Sho-Bud instructional courses. When I first started on Steel I had my knee lever set that way.
Later I got more knee levers and changed it.
Lloyd Green still has that change on his guitar, he has never changed it to lower both the 4th and 8th E strings. |
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Matthew Prouty
From:
Warsaw, Poland
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Posted 9 Jul 2009 8:13 am
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Ian,
When you have limited resources under the guitar you sometimes have to make a compromise and fore go a change to allow another.
The change on the 2nd string will give you a dom7 chord, where as the 4th string E to Eb would allow for many melody phrases.
I would change it to drop both Es if you plan to play a lot of melodic phrases. It is invaluable for that style of playing. You will be limited in possibilities with out it.
m. |
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Tamara James
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Posted 9 Jul 2009 8:20 am Fender student model
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sorry 
Last edited by Tamara James on 9 Jul 2009 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 9 Jul 2009 8:33 am
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The 2nd string becomes useless at the II and V fret positions if you can't lower it to D.
For example in the key of G, you go to the 5th fret (II position) to get an A chord (no pedals) or a D chord (pedals down). The 2nd string at the 5th fret is largely useless in G unless you can lower it. (It's a G# note, which isn't in the G scale)
Also in G, you go to the 10th fret (V position) to get a D chord (no pedals) or a G chord (pedals down). Again, the 2nd string isn't very useful here if you can't lower it. (It's a C# note, which isn't in the G scale.)
The lever gives you a scale tone in the II and V positions. It's arguably the most important knee lever of the E9th.
You don't really need to lower your 4th string. That same note is always available on the 2nd string.
_________________
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Last edited by b0b on 9 Jul 2009 8:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 9 Jul 2009 8:39 am
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The reason that it's on the same lever as the 8th string lower is economic. Fender and Sho-Bud didn't want to spend the money to put two knee levers on their student guitar. The two changes are never used together, and in fact they sound pretty awful if you hit the 2nd and 8th string at the same time.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Ian Sutton
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 9 Jul 2009 8:41 am
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| Thank you all for the info. If I want to add levers (John Coop says this guitar can have up to four), what would be the most useful knee lever addition(s)? |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 9 Jul 2009 8:46 am
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| Ian Sutton wrote: |
| Thank you all for the info. If I want to add levers (John Coop says this guitar can have up to four), what would be the most useful knee lever addition(s)? |
Change the existing lever to lower the 9th string instead of the 8th (very easy to do), then add a lever to lower both E's to D#, and another to raise both E's to F.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Thomas Colvin
From:
Austin,Texas, USA
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Posted 13 Jul 2009 3:54 pm
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| I have this same guitar and it is a "pull-release" system. I understand you can't raise and lower the same string. My guitar had the lever hooked up to 4 & 8, but my C pedal could not pull the string up to F#, not even quite to F. The "fingers" on the string changers hooked up to the lowers are off-center when tuned, so when you engage the lever, they go back to center. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 14 Jul 2009 7:26 am
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Most older pull-release guitars seem not to be able to do raises and lowers on the same string. But here's a thread about a modern pull-release changer that can raise and lower the same string - http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=160894 - so I would investigate that factor carefully before deciding what to do here.
If this guitar's changer cannot reasonably - in a way that is stably tunable - raise and lower the same string, then
1. You cannot get two of the most critical changes - E=>F on strings 4 and 8 (F-lever) and E=>D# generally (but not always) on both strings 4 and 8 (E-lever). This means you can't ever really get a full modern E9 copedent out of this guitar. Myself, I wouldn't spend the money to mod such a guitar. Instead, I'd use it to develop basic technique - bar control, picking, blocking, use of the basic pedals and the lever you have, slants if you want to learn them - and be looking for a steel that will handle a modern E9 copedent.
2. If you really are locked into that guitar for whatever reason, you could do as b0b suggests and take E=>Eb on string 8 off your current lever and move it over to string 9 to lower D=>C#, to give you a bona fide D-lever, and then add the F-lever on LKL - hopefully your current lever is on the right knee, since the F-lever and D-lever are useful together. But under this hypothesis (can't raise and lower the same string), you won't be able to add any type of E-lever also. Although I think both E and F levers are both important, I think F is more important for the classic E9 sound.
On the other hand, if you can indeed raise and lower the same string with no problems, then I would suggest going for the basic standard 3+3 setup plus whatever other lever you might find useful. I think the generally agreed-upon standard 3+3 is your current Emmons-style pedals (pedals 1, 2, and 3 are called A, B, and C pedals, respectively) plus the D, E, and F levers as mentioned:
| Code: |
Function: F A B C E D
String# LKL LKR P1 P2 P3 RKL RKR
1 F# ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
2 D# ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----D----
3 G# ---- ---- ---- ----A---- ---- ---- ----
4 E ----F---- ---- ---- ----F#---D#--- ----
5 B ---- ---- ----C#--- ----C#--- ---- ----
6 G# ---- ---- ---- ----A---- ---- ---- ----
7 F# ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
8 E ----F---- ---- ---- ---- ----D#--- ----
9 D ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----C#---
10 B ---- ---- ----C#--- ---- ---- ---- ----
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I've set this up "Sho Bud style", which puts the F and E levers on opposite knees. "Emmons style" puts E on LKR, leaving a lever open on the right knee. This thread gives an extremely articulate discussion about the advantages and disadvantages of each approach: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/007769.html
I think this copedent is not particularly limited at all. But one can generally get a "feel-stop" for the D on the string 2 D-lever, with the full-stop going down to C#. One way to achieve this is to set up the leverages so that the 9th string C# doesn't start to come in until after the second string goes down to D - the extra tension felt when the 9th string change starts lets your knee know that string 2 is at D. There are other ways to do it, but that can often be made to work. With all this said, it may or may not be possible on this guitar.
As far as a 4th lever, there are lots of options, none of them really "standard". I would probably go for B=>Bb on strings 5 and possibly 10 on LKR, but another good choice is G#=>F# on string 6. There are lots of other reasonable choices, however. Some players prefer F#=>G# on string 7, others prefer F#=>G on strings 1 and/or 7, some add F#=>G# on string 1, which can sometimes be added to some of these other changes. Other players use the so-called Franklin change, which lowers strings 5, 6, and often 10, a whole tone.
But I think the basic 3+3 with the feel stop at D, full-stop at C# on string 2, can keep someone busy for years, if not indefinitely. I think this recent thread had a lot of interesting discussion, including a very insightful email from Lloyd Green where he laid out his approach (which doesn't lower string 4 E to D#) and reasoning: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=161905
My take, as always. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 14 Jul 2009 7:43 am
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| I realize Bob knows a lot more theory than I do, but personally, I find the "E" lower (4th str.) far more useful and melodic. If I need that 2nd string scale tone, I'll just slant or back up the bar. My playing is more centered around playing moving harmonized melody than it is on playing scales at a single fret. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 14 Jul 2009 10:47 am
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If you're moving harmonies and melodies up and down on the first two strings, you need the 2nd string lower. I have a hard time getting that slant on adjacent strings.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 14 Jul 2009 2:34 pm
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| Bob, I prefer to use strings 5 & 6 to get those same harmonies (that most players now get on 1 & 2). That gets me away from the "whiney" sound so many non-steelers seem to complain about. Except when I was tuned to D9th, the first 3 strings just never seem to have the "body" and fullness I prefer. |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 14 Jul 2009 3:46 pm
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"It's arguably the most important knee lever of the E9th. "
I just dont get it. Ive started threads on it, Ive studied it, Ive had a lesson devoted soley to this lever and I stll cant use it. how can it be that Ive been playing three years and never touch the most important lever in E9th?? I mean i know IM no genius...but I feel like I am really missing something kinda simple here and its super frustrating that despite trying very hard to 'get it" ...i just havent.  |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 14 Jul 2009 8:02 pm
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Obviously if you don't use the 2nd string, you don't need that lever at all. But if you do, haven't you noticed that it's a "bad note" at certain frets? 
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 14 Jul 2009 9:32 pm
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You're right, the problem is more that i dont use the 2nd string very much.
I can see uses for it, I know a few licks, but i dont understand how it can be the most important lever in e9th at all. To hear you say that makes me feel like I am really missing out on something because I really respect your opinion and have gotten such great advice and help from you in the past. even on this very subject... i dont know why i cant seem to get it. maybe this will be the year..hehe. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 14 Jul 2009 10:07 pm
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Ben, it's just that the 2nd string is so durn useful in so many combinations for both harmony and single note work. Sometimes unaffected, sometimes lowered a half tone, sometimes lowered a whole tone, and sometimes, (combined perhaps with the first string raised,) raised a half tone.
In the very simplistic terms Jeff Newman sometimes used, "no lever" with "no pedals" position chords and licks, "no lever" with "A +F pedal" position chords and licks, and "half tone lowered" with "Pedals Down" chords and licks. That's certainly a good starting point. |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 15 Jul 2009 6:13 am
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Ive got a handful of licks with string 2..i just now monkeyed around with strings 1 and 2 together(something that never even occured to me before) and found the scale right away...Ive got some of the harmonized stuff and understand why the half step lower is needed at positions other than position I. The full step lower I dont get at all and have NEVER once used.
The stuff i DO understand, I'm just never using ...which i guess is another problem entirely.
incorporating the bedroom stuff into my playing has always been a supreme challenge for me.
Like i said tho, another issue entirely.
you guys have been very patient and helpful in trying to explain this change/string to me over the years now...Ive asked so many times, and still havent gotten it  someday!
Thanks |
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