Has anybody replaced the two 12s in a twin with a single 15

[Mike Perlowin]

If so, did it sound better? How did it effect the weight? Was it heavier or lighter?

I'm thinking of doing it to my Music Man HD 212.

[Tony Prior]

yes, I think this was not uncommon. I pulled the 2x12's from my '66 and replaced it with a JBL D130 way back in the 70's. I used that amp all the way up to the early 90's when like an idiot I sold it. The D130 was an 8 ohm speaker so It dropped the volume level a bit from the 4 ohm 2x12 pair but certainly not enough to notice or matter. It is said, and I have read this somewhere on the net that ALL tube amps run class A up to approx 50% of the power lever, I doubt I ever ran it higher than 50% so life was good.

I thought it sounded great, lots of clean bottom and the Tele sounded real good as well, at least to me . The amp really wasn't much lighter, maybe a pound or two at best I didn't pull two JBLs , they were the stock Fender speakers, Jensons I believe.

If I did this today I would use a 4 ohm BW 1502.

t

[Donny Hinson]

I did that many years ago to my B/F Twin Reverb. I used a D-130 for a while (which made it noticeably lighter). I then switched to an early EV SRO (probably the heaviest speaker made). That made it even heavier than it was with the 2 twelves, but the sound was far better. The combination remains unchanged, and I still use that amp, occasionally, though more for the "cachet" of using an old Fender tube amp than for the sound. (Seems to impress some people.)

[John Gould]

I did it years ago and had Paul Rivera build a custom cabinet for the amp. He did a great job on the cabinet he made it look like the old Mesa style with the wicker grill and natural wood with just a light stain. I have pictures but can't locate them right now.
It sounded great and loud and clean with lots of lows.
It didn't make the amp any lighter but it sure looked good and sounded great. Like lots of other great gear I've owned through the years I needed money for rent or food or some other stupid thing and I sold it.

[Johnny Thomasson]

I have a '65 Twin. The 12" speakers that were in it when I got it weren't original. They sounded ok, but the amp weighed a ton. I had a 4 ohm D130, so in it went. That was over 30 years ago. A friend of mine has a B/F Twin that has 2-12" JBLs. Mine is considerably lighter than his. About 20 lbs. lighter, I'd guess.

As far as sound, I love the way it sounds. I'm not even slightly tempted to go back to 2 12's. I played fiddle through this amp for many years; I only started playing steel about 5 years ago. A funny thing I discovered is that what works well for steel (electronically) also seems to work well for fiddle, and vice-versa.

I bought a NV400 to use with my Pro-II, but found I like the Twin better. I also have a very old Tele, and it sounds absolutely killer through this old amp. I've since started using the NV400 for fiddle. In high volume situations it works better for me than the Twin, but it can't match the Twin on tone at moderate volume levels. But, everyone seems to want to play loud these days...

You didn't say what kind of 15" speaker you are considering. I don't know how much power a Music Man HD 212 has, but if you're considering a D130, be cautious. IMO, they've got tone like no other speaker, but I could easily blow one with my 85 watt Twin. But, all it takes is a little caution. In all the years I used it, I only had to have it reconed once. And that's only because I did something stupid... I got pissed off at a guitar player who kept stepping on me all night, so I dimed the volume knob. It cost me as much as I made that night, but it still felt really good!

[Mike Poholsky]

Just got my '64 Twin back from Ken Fox a couple of months ago. I had 2 - EVM 12S speakers in it. Took those out and put in the 15" Eminence out of my FSK. Like Donny said, those EV speakers have to be the heaviest speakers made, but they do sound great. The Twin weighed 90 lbs with the EVs, weighs in at 70 lbs with the Eminence. I've only played it out a few times with the 15" and I like the voicing especially the bottom end. When I have some time, I want to try the BW 1501-4 that's in my FSK now. I really like what the BW did for my FSK, would like to see what it will do for my Twin. If I remember right the BW 1501-4 is about 5-6 lbs. lighter than the Eminence.
By the way, Ken does excellent work.

[Jack Stoner]

I did that to the Silver face AB768 chassis Twin I had (bought new in late 70 from Chuck Levin's Washington Music Center). It came with two 12" JBL D-120F's and I replaced them with a JBL K-130. Had to install the 15" JBL slightly off to one side so it wouldn't interfere with the amp chassis and components.

The Twin I had, had a removeable speaker baffle. Later models have the baffle glued in and it has to be cut out and replaced.

The 15" made a big difference for steel.

[Johnny Thomasson]

Yeah, I had to install mine off center for the same reason that Jack mentioned.

Mike - how were you able to center your 15" speaker? It sure makes the amp look a lot nicer. I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a sonic benefit as well. I think the purple jewel lights are a nice touch, too.

[Jim Sliff]

Mike, the Twin and MM (I've had several of both) are quite different animals - both *can* be played with a clean tone (the Twin can be "massaged" for earlier breakup - it's much more difficult with the MM because of the extremely high voltages) but they sound completely different with different harmonic content.

With EL34 power tubes and high plate voltage (and SS preamp voiced differently from a Fender tube preamp) the MM's are much stronger in the upper-midrange than the Twin, which has a bright top end, strong lows but more of a "scooped" midrange (unless it's modified). I've found that with 15" speakers you have to choose VERY carefully with a MM or you'll end up with a huge sound but with a nasty midrange "honk".

Personally I'd say a 2x12 or 2x10 (modern 10" bass drivers can be tremendous steel speakers) setup would be the better choice. If you are seriously considering going to a 15" I'd strongly suggest calling Ted Weber at Weber VST, tell him exactly what instrument, amp, style and volume level you play most commonly and describe your "target tone" - Ted normally will even suggest specific competitor's speakers if he feels one of his isn't right for the job, which I find very refreshing.

I personally can't think of any 15 I' use with a MM unless it was a very early tube preamp model - and some tube substitutions and other mods would still be needed if I wanted a Twin-like clean tone with a 15.

[Jim Strawser]

I have to agree with JIM, email Ted Weber and or call. He is a speaker wizard and can most likely recommend a replacement speaker that has some considerable weight reduction. I recently purchased (2) 12" ceramic speakers from him, a Blue Dog and Silver Bell. WOW! What and awesome combination either for steel and or my Tele. And to boot it made my 80's era Traynor solid state sound like a expensive tone amp at 2/3' the cost! Good Luck, I think you will be suprised at what Ted Weber has to offer!

[David Doggett]

If so, did it sound better? How did it effect the weight?

Yes, this has been very common over the years for steelers (the first amp I got for steel was a blackface Super Reverb that Sho-Bud sold me with a 15" JBL, which at 8 ohms was hopelessly mismatched in that 2 ohm amp). A 15 does give a thicker, deeper voice that steelers (including me) prefer for country, swing and jazz. On the other hand, some steelers prefer 12s for country-rock (Buddy Cage) or blues/rock (Dan Tyack, and me). Considering your own signature genre, there are not a lot of opinions on speaker size choices for classical pedal steel. My dabbling in that genre indicates 15s are best.

Was it heavier or lighter?

Depends on what 12s are in the amp. If you replace Fender 2x12s (or Jensens or Oxfords) with a single JBL 15, you won't feel much weight difference. If you replace JBL 2x12s with a single JBL 15, you will feel a little lighter weight. My recommendation is to try Weber neos. They have the JBL specs and sound, and are a little lighter (though not as much as one might expect). In addition, the Webers give a choice of 4 ohms or 8 ohms, to match what the amp wants. Both JBL D130Fs and Weber Neos are about 60 watt speakers (although Weber claims around 80 watts). These can be used cautiously by steelers as singles in a 100 watt amp, if they are conservative with the volume pedal. But a Twin is really meant for two speakers, and you really don't unlock the full glory of a Twin (or Dual Showman) unless you use two speakers, whether they are 12s or 15s.

I'm thinking of doing it to my Music Man HD 212.

Those are completely different amps from a Twin. They have very hard, piercing highs. I just got rid of a MM RD 112 100 watt amp. The chimey Celestion Silver Series that was in it was intolerable. I disconnected the Celestion and plugged the MM into a Weber Neo 12, and it was only slightly better. Plugging it into a JBL D130F was not much better. But I tried Fender 12s, which were dull in a Twin, and they sounded better than anything else for the MM, but still not good enough for me to want to keep it. My final opinion was that a MM is a very small, light amp that has alot of the clean power needed for pedal steel. With the right speaker, they can make a good compact, light, powerful amp for lugging to practices. But I would never want to gig with one.

[Jim Sliff]

If you replace Fender 2x12s (or Jensens or Oxfords) with a single JBL 15, you won't feel much weight difference.

he's not - as noted (and as somewhat addressed in the second part of your post) he has a MM amp - and the two are not similar other than being known for clean tones.

The problem is the frequency response of the clean tones and how they work with most 15's. One of my best friends was a tech on the MM amp line and we had amps on top of amps with all kinds of speaker combos....and 15's were not the right choice (at that time) with the high-voltage/EL34 combination. The midrange was too "in front".

[Jeremy Threlfall]

I Don't mean to butt in, Mike - and I hope this adds value to your original question

I have just bought a MM HD-130 head and I need to make a decision on which speaker to use with it

The first question from me is: do I go with a 4 ohm or 8 ohm speaker? (as the amp is switchable at the back panel)



I have a Steel King, so I will start with that speaker( Eminence Commonwealth, I think) which is similar to the JBL D-130F

I am excited about getting this amp as it may be useful in a variety of applications (bass, guitar, PS)

[Darryl Logue]

I prefer 2 12's for a quicker response and punchier tone. Altec 417 if you can find them and they are not light.

[Mike Perlowin]

Thanks for the responses guys. Especially for the information about how the MM is a different amp than the Fender. (BTW I bought mine used in 1977, so it must be one of the earliest ones, from the time when Leo Fender owned the company. I don’t know whether or not it has the tube pre-amp though.)

I think I’ll leave it the way it is and buy a real steel amp with a 15 inch speaker instead.

[Craig Coffman]

Having sold my peavey amps after retiring from the steel for 10 years, I recently decided to give it one more try. I assembled a combination of MM65 head with a BW 1501-4 in one of Tommy Huff's cabinets. I've only played it briefly at home but it is miles ahead of the solid state amps I used for too many years. No idea of how it might compare to a Fender, however. Hope this is helpful.

[Jim Palenscar]

I think that is basically what the original Fender Vibrasonic was- a Twin chassis with a single 15. I had one in the early 70's with a matching reverb unit- sounded great but it was heavy!

[Julian Goldwhite]

Hi Mike,

I bought a Music Man 115 RD-100 with a factory original 15' EV in it a couple months back as part of my quest for a PSG friendly tube based amp. Having a long career as a guitar payer, my preference has been for tube amps for quite a long time now.

I will admit to being fairly new to the PSG, but I have tried a fair variety of amps, and this one has a sound I love! This amp is a 2 6L6 amp, with a solid state pre-amp. Being a hybrid amp you have some of the warmth of tubes with great clarity from the SS pre. The tone controls are versatile and offer a very useful and PSG friendly range IMHO, especially with the deep and bright switches.

As to comparing the 1x15 configuration to the same amp with 2x12, I can't comment, suppose I could try a different cab, but to be honest, the thought never crossed my mind because it sounds so darn good.

Hope this helps somewhat. I know we are practically neighbors Mike, and if you would like to check the amp out for your aural edification sometime, let me know.

All the best,

Julian

[Jim Dickinson]

The first generations of the ALTEC 417 was fairly light. You can tell them from the others by the tin cover on the magnet. The later ones had a cast iron magnet pot that was stepped like a zigurat, they were heavier. The last of them, and the 917 which had the Ceramic magnet were much heavier, although still a great sounding speaker.

Two 12s do have on advantage over a single 15, projection. The two speakers create a multual coupling and have the effect of narrowing their radiation pattern and will project the sound better than a single cone speaker. As the frequency rises, the projection narrows, in a dead room it works wonders, in a live one, you might want to turn the treble down. The smaller cone speaker, with all things being equal, which they never quite are, ought to be quicker in rise time and more detailed than a larger one. The magnet motor and cone also figure into the mix, a better made speaker will likely sound better than a poorer one. For two 12s, I would look to the Weber Neo 12, the one with the cast frame and the 4" voice coil, it is designed to be similar to the JBL D120 in sound, and not be near as heavy.

The Eminence Steel King Speaker is not the same as any other Eminence. It was designed to be a near acoustic clone of a JBL D130 and is only available in the Steel King and Jazz King Amps.

Jim

[Joe Shelby]

There weren't many made of these, and they were sold without a speaker. I purchased one in '76; that was the chassis that had mostly transistors in the preamp but did use a 12AX7 as the driver tube. For the first couple years I used a D130f, that blew and a K130 replaced that, which sounded better in that amp.

That came after using a long string of Fenders;blond
Bandmaster piggyback, BF Pro Reverb, SF Super Reverb,
early SF Twin Reverb. The treble in the MM was pretty piercing, I could never tame it. It was a very different sound compared to the Fenders mentioned above. I thought the reverb was smooth and
sweet. Still, I used it a long time, and it was very durable.
The best sounding MusicMan I used was a 65w 410 model. It had the stock MM speakers, but it was a great match as a steel guitar amp. I know a lot of players find 10's to be too bright or thin, but in the Super Reverb and the 4-10 MM they worked very nicely for fat and not overly bright tone. Yes, you
can spend a lot of time just finding the right 15" or
12" for your particular setup, but don't rule out 10
inchers should you have the chance to try them.
I now use a 135w Twin in a head cab, with one or two
15's in separate cabs. The cab I most use has a Weber California, it doesn't sound like a JBL D130f,
but it's a good sound anyway.

Joe.

[Jerome Hawkes]

i've always loved MM amps - i had my share of fenders over the years, and certainly they were great, but for gigs, oh no (yeah, i know they've been lugged around for 50+years) - those MM's were tanks - i lived on the 3rd floor of my dorm in college and kept my MM RD-112 (60w) in the back of my little datsun pickup (with a camper shell) cause i didnt want to lug it up and down the stairs - never took it out cept for gigs - i would turn a corner and it would slide all around the bed and BAM - 2 years of that - backed over it, had it fall over, beer spilled on it, you name it, that amp took it and i cant believe i ever sold it just because of its years of dedicated service - i dont think a fender would have survived all that. i try to take a little more care these days - back then it was just a tool....a heavy one - that was one heavy 1-12"

years later i found a MM 212, but IMO, didnt sound nearly as good as the 112-60w.

[Tim Marcus]

I just talked to the folks at Weber about this exact thing since my twin has a blown speaker after years of faithful service.

Their Neo 15 is only 75W and my twin will toast that thing - especially at the volume I play at!

I decided to go with 2 Neo 12's - I am really looking forward to having these in my setup and will post my impressions and weight difference if anyone is interested.

[Tim Whitlock]

Nice to know that Weber did not receommend the Neo 15 for your Twin. I found out the hard way that the 15 breaks up pretty badly at high volume (over 7) in a Twin. Hopefully the 2 12's will handle the power better because the 15 was a very good sounding speaker up until it hit the breakup point.

[Dave Hopping]

I'm surprised the TRRI Custom 15 hasn't gotten a mention on this thread.

[Jerry Hayes]

Mike, I've never done it to a Twin but in the seventies I had a Randall Commander II solid state 2-12 amp which was the same size as a twin and had an orange face plate with the same controls including reverb and tremolo. I bought a 15" ElectroVoice speaker from fellow Forumite Stephen Silver and installed it in the Randall and it became a killer steel guitar amp if there ever was one. Unfortunately it was stolen from a club in Stanton, Calif. I have a MusicMan 212-HD One Fifty in which I'm going to be changing the speakers soon. I have a pair of 12" EV's which have magnets almost as large as the diameter of the speaker(s)... They should really sound good but will no doubt increase the weight of the amp........JH in Va.