Tube Amplifiers

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 2 Jul 2009 6:21 am

Bill has a point. There is DEFINETLY prejudice against SS amps especially amongst guitar players, and even more so amongst non country musicians on all instruments.
You could call this "brainwashing" I suppose.

I only recently got into country music and when i went to my first "country" show, I was shocked and appauled to see a stage full of SS peaveys. Amps which I had regarded as the worst guitar amps of all time....period. I had no idea Peavey even made tube amps. I just saw the peavey logo, that hideous logo i assosciated with Rage's and TNT's, and thought ...why?

Theres more acceptance in the bass and steel worlds for SS. Guitarists have been brutalized , traumatized, by these SS amps in the 80's and are definetly biased (pun intended) against them.

The ONLY reason i gave my SS evans the time of day is because it was light weight. But it turned out to have a tone I REALLY liked and find very useful. On guitar it was pure dookie, but on steel ...very nice...there WAS a certain enjoyable quality to the cleanliness and a weird smooth compression that the tube amps didnt give me. I LOVE tube amps on steel too. just a different tone. glad I have access to both.

I dont know...most of the tube guys in this thread are or were guitarists first no? I think steel only steelers are more accepting...maybe more WILLING to accept, more open to the possibility, that good steel tone can come from an ss amp. It took me a long while to finally accept that its not only possible its quite common. you can still prefer a little harmonic distortion or lloyd greens recordings to bruce boutons..i understand and concur...but I also recognize the good SS tones both on record and in person.

theres room for both, having a preference is understandable. but Im open to alternatives where a couple years ago i would not have been, my mind isnt closed entirely to SS amps on steel. On guitar...you still have to find me an SS amp that is pleasing to my ear...I havent heard one yet. To some extent i carry this "brainwashing" over to my opinion of steel amps ..i admit it.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 2 Jul 2009 7:38 am

Nicely put. Ben.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 2 Jul 2009 8:30 am

I agree, Ben.

I was a tubes-only guitar player for a long, long time. But there are "good" sounding solid-state amps for guitar, depending on what you think is "good" and also depending on what style you're trying to play.

For mainstream jazz guitar, solid-state amps often sound great. Practically anything with good clean headroom that will handle a lot of lower midrange and bass sounds good to me. These days, there's a cottage industry providing lightweight SS amps for such players.

Older SS amps that sound good for various other purposes are

Old Kustom roll and tuck amps with tremelo and true vibrato (150 and 250 are two models that come to mind.) Clean rhythm machines, I like.

Old SS Vox amps like the Cambridge/Berkeley II, Viscount, Royal Guardsman, Super Beatle, and so on - yeah, they're dumped on by a lot of people, but where do you think that Sgt. Pepper tone came from? Tom Petty described their tone as "a blizzard of nails", but used them in the very early days. Actually, some of my favorite old psychedelic guitar solos came out of a Super Beatle (Detroiters will remember Gary Quackenbush in SRC, who played a black Les Paul Custom into a SB.)

The Roland Jazz Chorus 120 is a good alternative to a Twin Reverb in many situations. I recoiled in horror when I went to see Albert King in the 80s and saw him playing one. But after the first note, I knew everything was going to be fine - he sounded exactly like himself. He also used to use some old Acoustic amps - just fine.

Of course, the Lab L5 (2-12) is a great-sounding amp - BB King has used them for years. Shockingly close to a good Twin Reverb if set correctly, to my ears.

For clean country pickin', one of my favorites is the Peavey Bandit 65, and to put my money where my mouth is, I have one. Put a little (I mean a little) compression and delay in front, and it kills.

One of my very early amps was a 20-30 watt or so Univox with reverb, tremelo, and a 12" speaker. It sounded pretty durned good. I've also played some SS Standels that were very good sounding.

There are lots more. Don't bother trying to get the sound of a cranked old Fender or Marshall outta these - but if you want a little sharper attack and crispness, or the ability to hang together with chords stronger in the bass department (with the right speaker), they can be great. Just my opinion.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 6 Jul 2009 3:51 pm

It's not really a "SS bad - tube good!" argument. There are good and bad sounding amps of both types. I've said many times I do not care for Twin Reverbs, unless I'm playing outside in an amphitheater and can crank one to 8 or 9 - to me they don't even drive the speaker well at 2 or 3 on the volume control.

And my Standel Custom 24 and the Gibson Lab 5 I used New Years' Eve are both stellar sounding solid-state amps.

But there is a very strong bias in the steel community towards Peavey solid-state amps, and Peavey has capitalized on it and have done their best to present themselves as the only major amp maker catering to the steel player.

But perhaps they've shot themselves in the foot. The steel amp market really is rather small, and one wonders if they couldn't have pushed high-grade tube amps (at higher dollars) and built THAT market.

However, that's not the case. Peavey (in 6-string advertising) has pushed the fact that they sell "regular guy" amp - lower-priced amps with models to fit every budget.

I've played quite a few festivals and shows with amp backlines full of Peavey equipment. When I ask whoever's in charge about their choice of amps - it's price. And they don't sound terrible, but they don't sound like my Hoilland, '64 Vibroverb or '55 Deluxe either.

They've done a fine job at massaging a market to the point where a guy will spend $3k on a new steel but complain that anything over a grand for a new amp is highway robbery, and in the process become such fixtures that the "tone" becomes "good" - because players are conditioned to it.

OTOH, many players like myself who came to steel late in the game after years of working with tube amps hear the newer mid-priced SS combos and cringe - we're not conditioned to that sound at all.

And it's funny, because when I heard some of the early-70's Peaveys (the oddly heavy SS ones - what were they, 500's or 400's or something?) I thought they sounded great - an nothing like the squeaky-clean ones made today. They were closer to the Gibson Lab series than the current offerings.

As far as the technology goes, yes, long-time Fender players often have an aversion to SS, having lived through "The Great Depression" - i.e. the first Fender SS series followed by the legendary (for their use as boat anchors) "astrological" amps - topped only by the epitome of bad design, the Super Showman!

But I played a Carvin SS combo for several years that wasn't bad sounding, with an almost tube-like "breathing" quality. Unfortunately, it was built like a house of cards and was completely unreliable.

I'll close with a few points I think it's important to consider: you *don't* need 300 watts for pedal steel - power alone does NOT equate to headroom, and headroom DOES NOT equate to good tone (the two are separate issues); a mid-power (50 watt) Fender combo CAN be set up for plenty of headroom and is more than enough amp for most gigs; NO AMP that is brand-new, out of the box will sound very good. It takes quite a bit of time for the speakers to break in, and tube amps HAVE to be set up for the type of sound you want; ANY amp - tube or solid state - that is run at extremely low volume will not provide optimum tone (which is why Twins and big SS amps are poor choices for small clubs) - even pure clean tones need the speakers driven enough to "bloom" - which is why most knowledgeable 6-stringers have several amps and use the SMALLEST one they can for each venue - even Tele pickers who never use the slightest bit of overdrive or distortion..

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 6 Jul 2009 7:44 pm

But we do sometimes need 100 or more tube watts, or 200 or more SS watts (about the same volume). There is a currently running thread in which a pedal steeler says his Twin (miked) doesn’t have enough stage volume, and in those situations he goes to a big Peavey SS amp. And I have played high volume country rock and alt country in small rock clubs where the guitar and steel amps weren’t miked, and a SF Twin did not have enough headroom – my volume pedal was bumping on the longer sustained notes/chords. Also a 200 watt SS NV400 (which to me is no louder than a SF Twin) didn’t cut it. I would have needed the 300 watt NV1000, but being a tube-head I went with a 180 watt Super Twin.

It has a lot to do with how you use the volume pedal. If you attack notes with the VP 1/3 to ½ on, reserving the rest of the throw for sustain, you need an amp with two or three times more power than someone who attacks notes with the volume pedal nearly maxed out. If you need all that VP sustain on a loud club gig (no amphitheaters), a Vibroverb or Deluxe won’t cut it (my faux “Vibroverb” is a “black-faced” SF Pro Reverb with a 4 ohm JBL D130F).

As for speakers, on anything other than an acoustic jam, I can’t imagine any steeler running an amp on 2 or 3. For amplified gigs, and even rehearsals, my Dual or Twin or NV400 (back when I used one) will be between 5 and 10. Admitted, on a quiet gig, the VP might cut that down so the speakers are only seeing the equivalent of 2-4 on an amp without a VP. But I think I could bump up the bass and get a sufficiently full sound out of a NV400 with its heavy duty Black Widow. Remember, a steeler after clean sound will not need or want the sound of a pushed amp or speaker. And a lot of steelers with Twins use the moderate power handling JBLs, which sound fine in a Twin at moderate volumes.

I’m just saying, Jim’s advice might work for someone who keeps the volume pedal stomped, and who wants the sound of pushed amps and speakers. But that is not the typical pedal steeler, who attacks with the VP backed off, and wants a really clean sound.

I can’t speak to Peavey’s marketing strategies for guitar amps. I suspect their steel amp line is not a big part of their profits, and may even be profit neutral, or a loss – it is said Hartley is a closet steeler. I don’t think they put much of their marketing efforts into the small steeler community, and so don’t think they have pushed anything on steelers. Instead, I think they have given steelers what they wanted within Peavey’s overall strategy of moderate cost equipment for beginners and low-paid working giggers. It so happens they did it so well that even the top pros use their moderate cost steel amps. Webb, Evans and Stereo Steel amps are boutique steel amps at higher costs. But to Peavey’s credit, their moderate cost steel amps compete well against those in features and sound. With the higher cost of tube amps, and with so many out there already, it probably makes sense that they haven’t wanted to make an expensive tube amp dedicated to the small steel tube market. It is also probably relevant that community of working class country steelers don’t necessarily have the disposable income or provide the mass market cost efficiencies of the huge market of middle class rock and poppers. It’s a different mind set for both players and manufacturers.

And, ignoring the high end and vintage market, working pro guitars cost less than working pro pedal steels (isn’t that one of the big complaints about too-expensive pro pedal steels?). So there is more money left over to spend on a tube amp. After working stiff steelers sweat blood to pay for a $2000-$4000 pro pedal steel, they don’t have tons to spend on an amp – but wait, they don’t need to. Because Peavey provides reasonably priced dedicated steel amps – the same ones many top pros play. It’s not brainwashing – it’s common sense. Why pay high prices for low headroom, high maintenance tube amps designed for guitar, when all you want is a lot of clean power, and Peavey provides that with modest priced SS amps designed for steel. I understand that sensible reasoning, even though I personally play old Fender tubers.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 6 Jul 2009 8:32 pm

But we do sometimes need 100 or more tube watts, or 200 or more SS watts (about the same volume).

"Watts" is a completely irrelevant "standalone" comparison - and the statement that 100 tube watts is about the same as 200 SS watts is based on exactly what circumstances?

To make that assumption you have to take the tube amp and dissect the types of tubes and their condition, how well matched they are, how well balanced the phase inverter is, what kind of preamp tubes are being run and through how many gain stages (a 100 watt tube Twin...actually 80 watts in most cases...is completely different in gain structure and design intent than a 100-watt Mesa...or a 100 watt Ampeg, which would run in the opposite direction tonally. Then you also need to determine speaker efficiency, something often forgotten but extremely critical to volume.

Yes, as a *general* rule tube amps of a certain wattage appear to be louder than a similarly-powered solid-state amplifier...BUT...it's only true if other factors are relatively equal. I play with 5, 6, 10 piece bands doing everything from classic country to Cream and only at outside, unmiked gigs do I need to "bring in the reserves - a second 50-watt amp....because I rarely need more that my 40-watt Pro Reverb or 40-60-watt '64 Vibroverb Custom - and the usual drummer is fairly loud, as is the bass player with his rack rig.

The amps are set up in different way, and in some cases I can make significant headroom adjustments between songs.

And while I have had to use a reissue Twin on a backline and thought it had pretty obviously ben taken out of the box and put into service, it had too much volume - and that's without being set up for MAXIMUM volume.

It probably sounds like I'm arguing against tube amps - on the contrary, I think in the circumstances I'm reading about there are amps being used that are either 1) not properly set up for steel, if they are to be used for steel only, or 2) have a lot of hours on them and haven't been serviced.

But I want to repeat that "tube amp" and watts" vs "solid state amp" and "watts" are comparisons impossible to make as generalizations. A 100-watt tube Bogner may...or may not...be FAR better than a 200 watt "fill in the blank with the usual name" solid state amp. A Mesa...or Soldano...will be completely different. And a serviced Ampeg V4 with NOS tubes and efficient speakers will blow a hole in a concrete wall - play a steel and sit in front of a cranked V4 or VT22 and you better have a blisteringly loud monitor mix. And good health insurance.

OTOH I've played in a band with another guitar player who used a 100-watt JCM800 Marshall Half stack with 4xG12M70's. I used a 35-watt, 2x10 Holland open back combo loaded with Weber Chicagos, ordered with 25% lighter magnet structure. He played a Les Paul Standard, I played a Tele and I could bury him volume-wise. Simple - his amp hadn't been cracked open since it was new.

There is a currently running thread in which a pedal steeler says his Twin (miked) doesn’t have enough stage volume, and in those situations he goes to a big Peavey SS amp.

Then my professional opinion is he needs a good tech to look at that Twin (and maybe his whole signal chain, as he maybe losing a ton of gain somewhere leaving the Twin with nothing to work with) or a physical, because if it's not enough when MIKED either the amp is sick or he's hard of hearing. Seriously (and I have not seen the thread) I'd immediately look for technical issues. IT has NOTHING to do with the specific TYPE of equipment. It's either its condition, how it's been set up or some other specific technical problem.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 7 Jul 2009 9:53 am

My comparison of tube watts and SS watts is personal experience with pedal steel and a good condition NV400 (200 watts) and various SF Twins, Vibro(a)sonics or Dual Showman Reverb, in good condition. This was not a technical analysis, but just personal experience that the NV400 did not give me more volume than a Twin. I’m sure a NV100 (300 watts) would. I used the terms “about the same” to indicate it was an approximate comparison. These are two of the common workhorses for pedal steel that I have experience with. I have little knowledge of all the guitar amps you mention, except that in general most tube guitar amps other than silver-face Fenders don’t have the voicing and clean headroom I like for steel, so I have little inclination to spend time and money trying all of them.

Jim, you have stated before that you play steel with your volume pedal near maximum. It is no surprise that you can use 20-60 watt amps for that. But that is very untypical for steelers, who commonly attack with the VP only 1/3-1/2 on, and reserve the rest of the throw for sustain. It is this critical need for sustain that is as important as clean headroom in explaining why steelers feel they sometimes need 200 or more SS watts, and 100 or more tube watts. It’s not as much about sheer volume as it is about reserve power for sustain.

The Twin user said his stage volume was not loud enough. I included in parentheses that it was miked, just to present the whole situation. There didn’t seem to be any question that his miked volume through the PA was adequate, as even a smaller amp would be adequate for that.

Bill Duncan · Post by **Bill Duncan** » 7 Jul 2009 12:27 pm

Jim Sliff,
In reading your post about wattage, and the various things that needed checking in tube amps I thought. Wow! Why? Seems like much ado about nothing. I think I'll just pick what I brung and be happy.

Reminds me of a statement I read that was attributed to Merle Travis. Seems some guy asked Merle how many watts his amp had, and Merle said; I don't know I've never counted 'em! Must be enough though.

Maybe Merle said this, maybe he didn't, but if you'll look, there is still a message there.

Larry Bressington · Post by **Larry Bressington** » 7 Jul 2009 5:38 pm

Nashville 400 baby, Sterile and clean, Awesome tone, but mine stayes at home!
I never cared for Valve tone not even for guitar, it's a taste thing man, thats all.
I get quirky looks when i tell other players 'I prefer solid state tone' They stare at me cold!

Had a 400 come off of a roof rack in Wales one night, on a Vauxhall viva[ Chevy malibu stateside] hit the brakes and it flew in the air and landed in the middle of the road. Nashville 400 worked great, Fender twin was cremated.
Guitar player sounded killer sharing my amp, i could not hear the nuances he could, we ran and got a y cable so we could do the Newport gig.
Man... That was some years ago

One more reason i dont even carry an amp anymore.
Pod XT is all i use, pub, club, concert and studio.
I dont get into the 'Tube pre-amp thing' Done tried that too, straight solid state baby, but thats just
MY OPINION

Later Lads!

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 7 Jul 2009 9:06 pm

Jim, you have stated before that you play steel with your volume pedal near maximum. It is no surprise that you can use 20-60 watt amps for that. But that is very untypical for steelers, who commonly attack with the VP only 1/3-1/2 on, and reserve the rest of the throw for sustain.

For the record:

In most cases I don't TOUCH the volume pedal unless I'm playing my GFI and need to kill the volume to tune.

But -

That's in MOST cases. Plenty of times I have (and currently in about 1/4 of the songs the guys I'm playing with regularly do) used the volume pedal in the so-called "normal" way.

I've also had plenty of "conventional steelers tell me they don't use the volume pedal anywhere near as much as suggested is "normal", still get the sustain they need - and with mid-powered tube amps.

So while you *can* use it in that gas pedal" mode, it might not be quite as vital as some think - and something that players might be used to but matters not a whit to the audience - unless it's full of other steel players who use one that way.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 7 Jul 2009 10:14 pm

Well, it's vital to me and a whole lot of other steelers. On slow songs with a lot of long notes and chords, I know when my amp is on 10 and my volume pedal is bumping and I'm running out of sustain, that's not some misguided, brainwashed delusion. It's real. I play top brand pedal steels with plenty of sustain, and I pick fairly hard. But this still happens with underpowered amps, and I've seen it happen to others. That's why so many of us use big amps. You can make a rough advance guess at how much power you will need, but it's hard to be sure, especially when going to venues you've never played before. We'd rather have more power than we sometimes need, than to run out of power on a gig that needs it. If you play in a different style, or at lower volumes, and can get by with medium powered amps, then good for you. Just don't imply the rest of us don't know what we're doing. Why should we put more stock in your hypothetical advice than in our own real experiences?

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 8 Jul 2009 3:50 am

i'm no electronics guru, just a dude who has personal experience on both sides of the coin here...much like everyone else. i had a webb 6-14 that was a good amp, but even with all that power it wasn't detailed enough, and i could never get the tone i wanted out of it even though it wasn't brittle sounding, but i wanted too really badly because of all the great stuff i had heard about them and because i actually went to antioch and talked to jimmy myself, a really great man, super super nice and genuine...that amp eventually started smoking in a recording session...i had to sell it because the tech really didn't want to get into it...but he had a fender twin there ready for action at a reduced rate because he was tired of looking at it...the 135 watt version...so i got the twin...put e-120's into it...the sound was smooth but with two other guitarists in the band, a lot of detail in the sound of my steel was being lost in the mix...so this brings me to an aspect of this whole thing...caps...after researching the cap choices and talking to brad sarno in emails and by looking at posts, i decided upon the ones i thought would work best for my eq settings in my amp and for what i was looking for in sound...detail, clarity and an overall neutral color...once i did that, i was hooked on the amp. i like the flexibility of a tube amp as far as this is concerned, being able to change things around inside with only a soldering gun and a book and some time...printed circuit boards i have no clue with once something goes wrong...and i also like the ability to pull either the middle two or the outer two tubes to cut the power for a smaller gig...i have done this for three years now depending on the gig and haven't had any trouble...and since i have it out of the regular twin cab, and into a head unit...i can hook up any size speaker config. i want to it (as long as the impedance is right). say what you want to and argue back and forth about things forever...but i think that finding an amp that works for you, depends a lot on the type of guitar you play and the nature of the timbre of that particular guitar, how you like to set your amp up (i like my twin with the mids all the way up), and if you like the 3 dimensionality that tubes give you...for me, i was not a guitar player when i started playing steel, but a banjo player...(why the banjo has gotten to the point of being an easy joke target on here i don't know), so the tube bias for me has to do with the sound...i actually was against getting a twin for about three years because of all the things i read on here about solid state amps and power and blah blah blah...another aspect of this whole thing is the band you play in...i have played in bands where my webb turned way up and the twin in the same band turned way up weren't enough to compete with the drummer...glad i got out of that band...and i have played in bands where in practice we all played with little bitty amps (i was using a micro cube) and the drummer was tasty enough to judge how loud he needed to be (with brushes) and we could all hear fine...i think the bottom line is to find something that works for you, and stick with it...and trust your ears, not someone else's...after all, you have to sit in front of it all night, you might as well enjoy what you are hearing...

Jim Dickinson · Post by **Jim Dickinson** » 8 Jul 2009 1:06 pm

Ok, I am a begginning Steel player, but I have good ears, have been in the audio business for over 40 years.

I am a tube amp fan as far as sound quality, if you look back in this thread, you will find my views on this.

Last night, I finally got my ALTEC 342B 35 watt old PA amp home and hooked up. I went through it earlier in the day, the tubes are fine, and it was rebuilt right before it was put away, about 15 years ago. It made some extraneous noises at first, but has settled down nicely as the caps form up.

Last night I hooked it up to my ALTEC 12" 417 guitsr speaker. I had previously been using a really nice 100 watt solid state amp.

Now, the 342 is a quite high fidelity amplifier, it is not a guitar amp, they are prized by tube amp enthusiasts and some people use the mixer section for recording. It will handle fairly high input levels without distortion. I am one of those people who believe that Steel guitars ought to be played through an amplifier that has not been built to sound "right" with a conventional electric guitar, like the old Fender amps.

The 342 sounds fantastic, it's clean, it's dynamic, it absolutely adds another dimension to the sound, makes the solid state amp sound lifeless. It has all the liveness of the tube amp without the targeted distortion of a guitar amp. The high frequencys are crystal clear yet still warm and without strain. I tried it with the Fender Steel Kng Speaker I have, but, the old Altec 417 is faster and more transparent.

http://www.altecpro.com/pdfs/vintage/El ... Manual.pdf

http://www.altecpro.com/pdfs/vintage/Sp ... peaker.pdf

Just another way, Jim

Bill Duncan · Post by **Bill Duncan** » 9 Jul 2009 4:37 am

If Peavey builds an amplifier that some feel is inferior to a Webb or Standel or what ever amp you want to compare it to, then what makes it less of a "good" amp? I'm sure considering the volume of Peavey's production they have access to the same parts supplies as the "high quality manufacturers".

I would think that Peavey has engineers who understand electronic amplification at least as well as anyone out there. If Peavey is building a steel amp, aimed at pedal steel pickers, then you would think that they had geared the sound of their product toward supplying the needs of pedal steel pickers.

So again, tell me what are the boutique builders doing that Peavey is not doing, or cannot do? Or even Fender!

This does pertain to tube vs ss, because I preferr the Peavey solid state sound, and my original question about the sound of tube compared to solid state.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 9 Jul 2009 5:19 am

Bill Duncan wrote: If Peavey builds an amplifier that some feel is inferior to a Webb or Standel or what ever amp you want to compare it to, then what makes it less of a "good" amp?

So again, tell me what are the boutique builders doing that Peavey is not doing, or cannot do? Or even Fender!

To me, it's the price of parts--as well as design/assembly techniques. Cheap parts sound cheap. High end audiophile parts sound superior, but will drive the price of the amp up--tube OR solid state.

Bill Duncan · Post by **Bill Duncan** » 9 Jul 2009 5:29 am

James,

There is much truth in what you say, but I wonder how much difference there is in the price of the parts. With Peavey and Fender producing at huge volume they can have most any parts they want. At good prices too.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 9 Jul 2009 5:41 am

Yes Bill, that could be the case, however, you have to consider design/assembly too.

For instance, back in the early days of Fender, those amps were all handwired. The new "reissues", for instance, have pc boards to eliminate steps. Many of us see and hear the difference. But Fender sees "time is money" vs."git 'er done--close 'nuff". To me that is not a reissue, for the change in parts and method of assembly compromise the integrity of the amp they claim to "reissue", or duplicate if you will. That's why I treasure my old Fender amps. Not to digress, but the Fender reissues are reissues in cosmetics only.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 10 Jul 2009 6:24 am

Just don't imply the rest of us don't know what we're doing.

I'm not.

But power is over-emphasized and is just a part of what gives you volume and headroom. Saying "I need a 200 watt amp" is somewhat like saying "I need a guitar with strings" - it's an incomplete statement and means absolutely nothing as a standalone statement. There are numerous other parts, values and settings required to put the wattage statement in context, just like you need to define gage, wrap and alloy of strings - plus the right number of them. It's not an apples/oranges comparison - it's meant to show that there's more to the whole issue than wattage.

Bill Duncan · Post by **Bill Duncan** » 10 Jul 2009 8:00 am

Wattage is a measure of power, and I believe most guitarists can relate to what that means in an amplifier. As with most electronics there are other things to consider, but wattage is a good benchmark.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 10 Jul 2009 8:57 am

Bill Duncan wrote:James,

There is much truth in what you say, but I wonder how much difference there is in the price of the parts. With Peavey and Fender producing at huge volume they can have most any parts they want. At good prices too.

A great example of how the price of parts really does make a difference is power transformers. These are one of the most expensive parts in a tube amp, and they have progressively gotten smaller over the years. Compare the power and output transformers for a 1966 Fender Showman with a modern fender or Peavey 100 watt amp. My THD BiValve has transformers that are easily 4 times bigger than a Classic 30 or a Hotrod Deluxe.

The mass market amps use cheaper transformers because they are cheaper to buy and cheaper to ship. Good quality transformers are heavy. But they make a difference in two ways: tone and longevity.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 10 Jul 2009 9:20 am

Bill Duncan wrote:If Peavey builds an amplifier that some feel is inferior to a Webb or Standel or what ever amp you want to compare it to, then what makes it less of a "good" amp? I'm sure considering the volume of Peavey's production they have access to the same parts supplies as the "high quality manufacturers".

I would think that Peavey has engineers who understand electronic amplification at least as well as anyone out there. If Peavey is building a steel amp, aimed at pedal steel pickers, then you would think that they had geared the sound of their product toward supplying the needs of pedal steel pickers.

So again, tell me what are the boutique builders doing that Peavey is not doing, or cannot do? Or even Fender!

This does pertain to tube vs ss, because I preferr the Peavey solid state sound, and my original question about the sound of tube compared to solid state.

Production amps , tho they may have ACCESS to the same parts as boutique amps, do not use high quality components as a rule. i'd wager the opposite, they use the cheapest components they can get. soldering machines do alot of the work that was previously done by hand. I notice also a difference just in amp circuits in general. To me its seems the simpler the circuit and the fewer components...the better the tone. modern mass produced amps have your signal passing thru so much stuff, it all affects and degrades your tone IMHO. cloth wire vs plastic, carbon comp vs metal film resistors, the transformers as dan mentioned, even the board material. Its like most products, handmade in america is usually better quality than robot made in china and in general things were made better the old days IMHO.

when it comes to modern mass produced products. just because people are experts and know what they are doing and have access to the finest components...doesnt necessarily mean they will produce a quality product. they need to make a profit and keep production costs low. look at our cars

this has nothing to do with Peavey, just in general.
Peavey seems to me from my experience with a wide range of their products, to excel at making low priced quality gear. That seems to be the companies bread and butter and their philosophy and it appears to have worked well for them. I dont see them making custom shop amps or high end amps of any kind really....this isnt a slam...in fact its meant as a compliment. My point tho is I dont think are trying to compete with boutique amps or even make the BEST amp. one of their goals, and this is greatly appreacited by musicians, seems to be affordabilty. to do that, they need to be made with components that arent the most expensive avaialbale and therefor may not in fact BE the best available.

in the steel market they've carved out an impressive nitch and reputation for themselves. I can only conclude this is because those amps SOUND GOOD! Sure, theres an element of "what steel amp should I get, well everyone else has peavey, that must be the way to go, I'll get a peavey!"...just as your metal kid might be drawn toward a marshall because thats what he see's others playing..but if those amps didnt sound good in the first place...NO ONE would be playing them right and thered be no one to copy or be 'brainwashed' by? I also have no doubt that peaveys are popular because they sound good on steel, because Ive heard them sound good on steel.

all that said, they just arent for me I dont think.
There was a minty Nash 400 on CL for $150 yesterday and I passed on it.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 10 Jul 2009 9:22 am

Dan,
I traded for a Peavey Delta Blues with a 15" speaker. Just wanted it for my baritone guitar. When I looked at the PT, I was surprised at how tiny it was. Notice I say "was!" My tech and I installed a large Hammond transformer. An old one. Probably from the '50s or early '60s. Also installed a Dr. Z output tranny. The amp is now a totally different animal, and an amazingly great sounding amp. Even used it for pedal steel in the studio.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 10 Jul 2009 10:19 am

I'm not picking on Peavey, I think they do a great job of producing the best possible amps at a price that allows them to be competitive in the mass market. Unfortunately, providing components like 'over-engineered' transformers isn't competitive in that marketplace.

Andy Marshall described the following scenario when specifying the transformers for the UniValve and BiValve with the manufacturer:

"do you want the transformers to have a 5 year or 10 year product life"

"Neither. I own amps that are 50 and 60 years old with perfectly good transformers. That's what I want for my customers"

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 10 Jul 2009 10:24 am

Dan,
I'm not picking on them either!
"providing components like 'over-engineered' transformers isn't competitive in that marketplace. "
I thought they probably picked those small x-formers for the "old-timey, swampy" sound they were looking for. And those Delta amps have that sound. But they just couldn't keep up with the low voice of the baritone. That big ol' Hammond iron made a huge difference.