Fender Silverface Princeton v SF Princeton Reverb

Michael Pierce · Post by **Michael Pierce** » 28 Jun 2009 4:12 am

I'm thinking about getting a Fender SF Princeton for use at home (have a Bassman 100, which sounds lovely, but at 100 watts, it's pretty loud for home use). All other things being equal, are there advantages/disadvantages to getting the SF Princeton Reverb vs. non-reverb model? (I have an RV-7, which I use for reverb with the Bassman.) I have heard the extra gain stage in the reverb model is a plus, but have also heard the non-reverb version has a "sweeter" tone.

Last question, are there any advantages to looking for an earlier (say 1970) version of either versus one from the later '70s. Thanks for your input.

Eric Philippsen · Post by **Eric Philippsen** » 28 Jun 2009 6:05 am

Silver-faced Princetons and Princeton Reverbs have the same circuitry as their older blackfaced predecessors. However, some later SF PRs had a pull-boost feature on the volume control which I avoid along with any reissue or post-SF clone/wannabe.

It is true that a Princeton Reverb has another gain stage which the Princeton does not. That feature plus reverb, of course, makes a big difference. Does the SF or BF Princeton have better tone? That's definitely, definitely personal preference.

From a sales standpoint, the Princeton-Reverb is the ticket. It is much more desirable than its less well-endowed brother. As a vintage dealer I have sold to other dealers every PR I took to guitar shows before the doors opened to the public. I cannot say that about Princetons from either the BF or SF era. There is a price difference between the two models, usually of several hundred dollars.

The Princeton Reverb is the smallest Fender tube amp with both reverb and tremelo. Light, highly portable, great sound, for many it is their "desert island" amp.

Michael Pierce · Post by **Michael Pierce** » 28 Jun 2009 6:17 am

Thanks for the input, Eric. Just out of curiosity, what impact does the "pull-boost" have on the amp that would turn it into a negative? mp

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 28 Jun 2009 6:39 am

I defer to Eric and many others but in my experience....the negative is mainly a perception thing. When not pulled, it is not in the circuit and hence irrelevant. The pull boost, IMO, is not as horrendously awful as many make it out to be but neither is it a very good attempt to introduce overdrive/distortion to a clean circuit. Just the fact that it is there is a bit of a turn-off for some and a reminder of CBS messing with the Fender mojo. But I would not hesitate to buy one, especially at a lower price. Another thing is that later Fenders were wired somewhat more carelessly and sloppily (lead dress).
I have a Dual Showman Reverb that I disconnected the pull boost on because I had read too many people with pompous attitudes talking like the devil put it there. I now realize how foolish it was of me to pay them any mind and do that.

Bill Leff · Post by **Bill Leff** » 28 Jun 2009 6:43 am

I've heard it said that non-reverb Princetons are cleaner than the ones with reverb.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 28 Jun 2009 6:50 am

Eric has already laid out the main differences:

Princeton (no-reverb) - obviously no reverb, one less gain stage, stays clean pretty much to the top unless overdriven somehow.

Princeton Reverb - reverb, extra gain stage, distorts more without overdriving. Of course, all that overdrive into the same power section means that it gets louder than the no-reverb version, but that's not clean juice.

That explains why guitar players prefer them so much - someone looking for a distorted sound tends to consider the plain Princeton "wimpy". But that's just the reason I prefer the Princeton for pedal steel - in fact, I'm looking for a silverface version now for low-volume situations. I think they're perfect foil for a modeler or time-based effects unit. My plan is to drop in a higher-power 10" speaker. If one wants to overdrive them, it's easy to just apply a clean boost to the external signal. The no-reverb version has always been a lot less expensive - I think it's about as easy to sell either if they're priced at the market rate. Princeton Reverbs in original, excellent condition are expensive.

I actually prefer the silverface versions, which always have seemed to have a bit more clean juice - I've owned several of all types over the years, don't ask me why I don't have one now. While I think the pull-boost stuff is garbage, it's very easy to just not use it - Patient: "Dr., it hurts when I do that." Dr: "Then don't do that." I don't think they really did anything to the basic circuit, and sometimes one can pick up a bargain because that boost junk has a bad reputation. But I would go for an earlier silverface version unless there was a big price differential. I'd look for one with the removable baffle, which means late 60s or early 70s.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 28 Jun 2009 7:12 am

My music room amp is a blackface Princeton, non-reverb model. I mike it with an SM-57 against the speaker cloth for recording, and I use a Holy Grail for a touch of reverb when I'm practicing.

I don't have a Princeton Reverb for comparison, but it's hard for me to imagine that it would sound any better than what I'm using.

Post by **Brad Bechtel** » 28 Jun 2009 8:20 am

I use a silverface Princeton Reverb (1979, I think) as my main lap steel amp. Actually, I alternate between it and a recent Pro Junior, mostly for low volume practice. It has the "dreaded" pull boost which I've used once. I hated the sound, so I didn't use it any more.

The amp is a real workhorse and makes all my steels sound good (as good as my playing, that is).

I have no trouble being heard in a seven piece band (sax, violin, accordion, guitar, bass, drums and me).

J Fletcher · Post by **J Fletcher** » 28 Jun 2009 8:28 am

Princeton Reverb gets my vote. I only ever use spring reverb, so it makes a nice small package, with great sounding built in reverb. I have two, a siver face and a blackface, though neither is stock.
Both have 12" speakers in them at this point...Jerry

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 28 Jun 2009 8:51 am

I'm with Jerry. I got a SFPR because I wanted a single small package for pedal steel for quiet rehearsals and acoustic jams. A little spring reverb is all I need for that, and I didn't want to have to hassle with a separate reverb box. The tone differences between the models seemed small, and can probably be overcome with minor tech changes and tube substitutions. I don't care for the 10" speaker, and someday will swap in a 12". But I hate the fact I will have to permanently alter the dadoed fixed baffle.

Michael Pierce · Post by **Michael Pierce** » 28 Jun 2009 9:19 am

You guys are now in serious trouble with my wife.

I just bought a 1970 Princeton (non-reverb model) and will let you know how it sounds when it gets here!

I'm seriously jazzed. Thanks again everybody.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 28 Jun 2009 11:25 am

My killer! Big Allen power xformer, Dr.Z output xformer, 12" Celestian, tilt-backs, Stokes mod. 20 watts, great reverb, no roach trem, and it fits on the floor on the passenger side! Great amp.

Richard Chapman · Post by **Richard Chapman** » 28 Jun 2009 12:20 pm

I have a 69 SF Princeton and a 68 BF Princeton Reverb. Very different amps. The non reverb amp is the sweetest clean I have ever heard. I have used it out with guitar and even cranked wide open, you get just a hint of distortion. That amp really lets you hear you guitars real sound IMHO. I have used it with an external Fender Reverb unit and it is a beautiful clean sound. The BF reverb amp is much louder and distorts very nicely. very versatile, but I don't think the clean can match the non reverb amp. I have used both for recording and while different, they both sound very good to me. I have replaced the tubes in both with NOS tubes and they really warmed them both up a lot over the newer tubes that they had when I got them. I love both. For pedal steel ( I have an old Sho-Bud), I prefer the BFPR as the mids seem a bit warmer in that amp.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 28 Jun 2009 12:27 pm

How about brown? There's a '62 here in B'klyn. Price sounds way high at $1400. Def not in my budget but just wondering.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 28 Jun 2009 12:52 pm

Brown Princeton was a very different circuit - no reverb, but distorts a lot, lots of guitar players love 'em. The first blackface Princetons with white knobs were basically the same circuit. I've had several of each - they're cool for some things, but generally just too dirty for me.

I agree that a good Strat or Tele through a good SF Princeton non-reverb is one of the finest clean sounds on the planet. Right up there with a good white tolex '61 Tremolux - the biggest differences are less power and open-back vs. closed-back speaker cab. But they both just shimmer with the right guitar. [Edited to remove my error about roach tremelo on Princetons.]

I agree with Richard C.'s take - for clean, I generally prefer the no-reverb model. My tastes, of course, and they do vary on a case-by-case basis. They are both totally classic tone machines.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 28 Jun 2009 12:56 pm

So, Dave, the non reverb SF Princeton uses the "roach," but the SF PR uses bias trem?

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 28 Jun 2009 4:10 pm

Sorry - I'm completely wet on this. All the Princetons use the bias modulation tremelo. The roach is on the Deluxe/Deluxe-Reverb and up.

I don't know why that slips my mind sometimes, but it does. That's one of the reasons these late Princetons sound so good for clean.

I'm modifying my earlier post so nobody gets the wrong idea. If you disconnect the tremelo from the circuit, it cuts the bias completely - if the amp is on, it will smoke one or more transformers in a matter of seconds. I know - I did that once thinking about it as a Deluxe Reverb. All it takes is a 5-second slip of the mind.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 28 Jun 2009 4:14 pm

Thanks Dave! I was quite surprised to hear that they had different trem circuits. So that's cleared up. I abdo-lutely love my modded PR. I've used it in the studio for steel, and it has plenty of power, at 20 watts, to work very well on the bandstand for my Tele, but not for steel.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 28 Jun 2009 5:38 pm

What is this "roach" I keep hearing about? Guess I'm not up on the lingo.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 28 Jun 2009 5:52 pm

It's the optoisolator that powers the oscillation in non-bias type tremolos.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 28 Jun 2009 6:17 pm

I use a late 70s Princeton Reverb with the push-pull circuit for small gigs and recording. I changed the speaker to a JBL D-110F and it has made a world of difference to my ears.

My personal preference is for the silverface PRs over the non-Reverb models. To my ears, the amp sounds a little more "alive", as opposed to duller. There could be several other factors involved in this--I haven't really gotten scientific enough in my reasoning.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 29 Jun 2009 5:56 am

vibro champs and princetons kept the bias modulating trems from the tweed era. I cant remeber what the brown trem was, phase modulating? Then came the opto trem of the blackface and beyond eras. I recently tried a brown pro and the trem was the best Ive heard, almost uni-vibe like with a certain phasey quality to it...just gorgeous, people were coming from across the room to hear the amp when i tried it out.

My guitar player has a transition BF princeton with the white knobs and Im jealous of it. It does get a little gritty but Im into that, never occured to me to play a steel thru it, beautiful trem but nothing like the brown pro trem

Im no expert but anytime you add something to a circuit like reverb or trem...its gonna change the core sound somewhat.
Youve got another tube in there and the order of the components is changed.

I recently played a tweed princeton that rocked. $1200 tho.

edit: just got back from a different music store. It looks like they bought the $1200 tweed princeton from the other store and marked it up to $1700!!

they also had a beat lookin SF princeton (no verb)for $599.

Michael Pierce · Post by **Michael Pierce** » 4 Jul 2009 9:28 am

My 1970 Princeton SF arrived Thursday and I am loving it. The stock Oxford speaker is fine, but I've been running it through an EVM12L in a separate cabinet, and it sounds absolutely beautiful - big, warm and crystal clear, amazing for what, 12 watts? The amp came with an Amperex rectifier tube, and Philips power and preamp tubes, which all sound great. I'm thinking about buying a replacement baffle in a 1x12 configuration to install the EV in the amp itself (I think the 1970 was the last year of the removable baffle).

John Groover McDuffie · Post by **John Groover McDuffie** » 4 Jul 2009 9:43 am

If you are planning on putting the EVM 12 in the Princeton be sure to make careful measurements. The EVM frame may hit the output transformer of the amp if you center the speaker, you may have to shift the speaker towards the input side of the amp.

Congratulations on your new acquisition. One advantage of a '70 model over the late '70s models is the cabinet construction. By the late '70s Fender was using MDF instead of pine for the sides, top & bottom of the cabinets and it makes the amp quite a it heavier. I'm sure it sounds different too, although I couldn't say in what way exactly.

Michael Pierce · Post by **Michael Pierce** » 4 Jul 2009 10:03 am

Thanks, John. I did notice the replacement baffle sold by mojotone had the 12 speaker offset a bit, but I always thought that was to accomodate a reverb tank. Good to know. mp