Help me with C6

[Joel DeGarmo]

So I did it, after about 2 months of playing on my first pedal steel, I decided to go ahead and let myself spend some more money and get a D-10. I just got the guitar yesterday and I'm figuring it all out. I'd like to know some favorite C6 books and videos for getting started. Theory doesn't scare me. I can figure it all out with a tuner and piece of paper but instruction would be good. It's ok to play favorites, tell me what's good.

[James Morehead]

Jeff Newman's C6th Workshop. Excellant.

[Jim Sliff]

I've been curious about C6 as well, as I play mostly an 8-string B6; the tuning is close to the middle-8 of C6 - but I'm curious why there seems to be no consistency as to the 1st string tuning (and often one or two at the bottom), not to mention the copedents are all over the shop - pedal differences, some with one knee lever change, some with 4...

With E9 there's sort of a basic standard with 3 pedals and 3 knee levers - the 4th knee lever seems to be stock on better instruments but there are some variations in use.

s there ANY kind of C6 standard? I got one Jeff Newman course a few years ago - just a book (Music to C6 by. I think) - completely useless as he didn't bother to explain how his guitar was set up!!

It just seems odd that C6 came first - yet is the least consistent. I'm trying to adapt a C6 neck (in theory for the moment) to B6 but I have to guess what might be on it.

Thoughts, comments, suggestions?

[Wayne Franco]

These is a standard setup to a point after that anything goes. Other than the standard 5 and 6 pedal and knee that lowers the 3rd 1/2 step string changes I couldn't do without the D on top, 4 & 8 string raise 1/2 step and a D note on the bottom string. You have to learn some basic songs to start but I found it hard in the beginning because(like you say) of the different pedal and lever setups on the different courses. I used the Steve Palousik courses to start with. Very time consuming stuff but a really good foundation. I guess to get good you really have to do everything you can. The Emmons course was great too. Until I got into actually figuring out what I was playing those pocket he teaches didn't mean much to me. They do now. Find a good teacher, that will help.

[Greg Cutshaw]

Joel, Hello! from Corry, PA!

I've got a lot of C6th stuff on my site. Some of it is just riffs and some of it has complete songs tabbed out. Either way, learning a few of the songs on my site will get you familiar enough with the pedals and grips to quickly roll your own stuff if you are a self starter. Possibly start with this song (C6th - No One Will Ever Know )here for some quick orientation:


Visit phpBB!


Greg

[Paul Sutherland]

You may want to take a look at the C6th courses offered by Herby Wallace. I'm working on his basic course, HWP-200, right now and learning a lot.

[Steve Norman]

If you have a musical background already, especially in guitar, you can almost think of c6 as being a guitar neck tuned to a major chord with a string thrown in to make minors with.

The tuning allows you to play a relative minor and a relative major at the same time. So in the key of c maj you have a Cmajor chord with the A note present to get your an Aminor chord as well. Played together it gives a great swing sounding chord.

In numbers you have the notes 1,3,5,6 present.

1,3,5 being the major triad, and
6,1,3 being the relative minor

With the c6 you can play songs without using the pedals at all. Kind of like a dobro with that extra minor note.

A good course to get is the Homespun Cindy Cashdollar western swing series, which focuses on basic non-pedal C6.

Then you start adding pedals to get more variety out of the neck later.

The pedal that drops your lowest string makes a cool variant of the open string chord. Just slide up 3 frets focusing on low strings while pushing that string 10 drop.

It makes a cool 1 - 4 change

so from Cmaj to Fmaj you would do:

open low note strings to fret3 with pedal 8, to fret 5 open.

Its a great neck that breaks up the feel of an e9 set real well.

Also on e9 try playing the same way with pedal A down the whole time to see the similarities in the tuning.

[robert kramer]

This is an excellent course and is for sale on the Forum. Go to the top of this page and click the INSTRUCTION tab:

Buddy Emmons BE-07 Basic C6 - tab & CD $30

[Erv Niehaus]

You can learn a lot from Herb Steiner's C6th material.

[Joel DeGarmo]

I'm trying a combination of things recommended. A friend of mine let me borrow the Cindy Cashdollar (non pedal) C6 videos for a basic starting point. I ordered the Emmons basic C6 book with CD. Thanks guys.

[David Doggett]

I'm no 6th neck whiz, but I'll tell you some simple things that got me started.

No-pedals: First, it was a no-pedals standard for decades before pedals were added. So the best way to start is to learn it that way. Forget the pedals and levers. You don't even need them at all for a ton of vintage country and swing. Even without slants you can play lots of basic stuff. Just learn where the frets are for I, IV, V, II, bIII and bVII, and dive in and see what you can get with no pedals or levers.

Movable chords: Don't worry about using pedals and levers (and slants) to change the intervals as you move to new frets. Just move the same grip up and down the frets. It's part of the 6th neck sound. Don Helms played Hank Williams' stuff like that, with almost no slants. One reason this works is because the close intervals give a lot of natural substitutions. The same three adjacent strings at different frets can be a 6th chord, a minor, or a Maj 7th. You can just clomp around all up and down the frets with that chord and it sounds like you are playing complicated thick jazz chords and know what you are doing. This is why Jeff Newman said the 6th neck is easier than E9. You don't have to worry about skipping strings and changing grips a lot. It's hard to hit a wrong string - it just sounds like you meant to play one of those complicated, dissonant, thick jazz chords. A grip that works well for me for movable chords skips a string between the thumb and pointer finger, I guess because of the close intervals of the tuning.

Many roots=many necks in one: Experiment with using different strings as the root, and view the whole neck with that string as the root of a whole tuning. It's fairly obvious that using the 8th string A as the root gives an Am7 tuning. Less obvious is that using the 9th string F as a root makes the neck an Fmaj7 tuning. A maj7 is a movable chord in swing and jazz. You can follow a melody or riff using all maj7 chords and it's passable swing/jazz. As an Fmaj7 tuning, you are only off by one fret from the familiar frets of an E tuning. One of the beauties of the B6 mode of a uni is that you aren't even off by one fret. In B6 mode, using the low E as a root you have an Emaj7 tuning. It's an E neck with all the familiar frets, but you are playing thick jazz chords instead of the pure major chords of the E9 neck.

Pedal 6 = the AB pedals of E9: On C6 or B6, when you are on your I fret for a given key, hit pedal 6 for a IV9 chord. Two frets up is V9. So there you are. You can play any three-chord song on those two frets with just this one pedal. And don't be afraid to move it around - it's another one of those movable jazz chords.


With these simple secrets, the 6th neck is way easier than the complicated skip grips and pedal and knee combinations of E9. Just grab those movable thick jazz chords and clomp around all over the neck. You can play an amazing amount of vintage country, western swing, and jazz that way. It's almost too easy, which is why so many people sound so much the same on the 6th neck. The real challenge (which will take a life-time, and may lead you to the other pedals and lots of levers) is to break out of that stereotypical sound and play really distinctive stuff. That is immensely complicated - but you don't start there.

[Herby Wallace]

I have been doing steel guitar courses since 1969 and C6th courses since 1980 and I have quite a few in my series. As far as a basic or standard setup, I think most players agree that 5 pedals and 1 knee lever is considered standard and then it is up to each player from there. My course HWP-200 which is my most basic course contains chords, scales, chord progressions, intros, endings and songs plus some theory subjects and technique. Also, as far as the first string, it is a toss up between the G and D. I personally use a G, but the D offers a lot of possibilities too. I have these courses on my web site at: www.herbywallace.com and Bob Lee also carries some of them on the Forum.

Herby Wallace

[David Mason]

I really found a basic chord book to be the best help, then just work through what notes are relative to each other in the number system - root, 2nd, 3rd etc. Neil Flanz's chord book is the only one I found that didn't venture into idiosyncratic knee levers - if you want to use Doug Jernigan's, Buddy Emmons' or Herby Wallace's books, you need to have their setups. You can eventually work out some substitutions, but material that has something beyond the standard five pedals/one knee is much less useful to start on.

Once you have a chord book, you can start working out some favorite songs, one at a time, one version and one chord position at a time. Then, start finding another batch of positions for the same chords.

[CrowBear Schmitt]

Joel, Buddy's basic C6 got me started on C6 pretty easy & quick
i have'nt been able to cut C6 loose since
i believe most psg set ups are those that Buddy use, so you should'nt be out in limbo
Buddy's swing series tabs are excellent as well
Herby Wallace also has some xtra fine courses
jeff Newman too

the C6 tuning is 2 chords in 1
1 - at fret 0 : C6 root on string 10 ( 6 & 3 too)
2 - at fret 0 : Fmaj7 w: root on string 9
move it up to fret 7 & you've got Cmaj7
add pedal 6 & you've got C7/C9

http://dogriverpub.com/trap/chords.pdf

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum8/HTML/001192.html
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/008221.html
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/006033.html
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/005318.html
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/001160.html
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/004196.html

[Paul Wade]

i would highly recomond herby's c6th courses when i got my d-10 in 1982 i got herby's c6th and it help me out alot. i still go back to it with my students
and learn it the way herby explain it. just my 2 cents

p.w
www.countyoutlaws.com

[steve takacs]

David Mason, I wanted to clarify something. I just checked my Herby Wallace courses and mine all have G string on top and standard 5 pedals and 1 lever (lowering the third string half a tone): HWP-200, HWP-5, HWP-10, HWP-12. HWP-4 has two levers but the extra lever is used twice over the course of 4 songs and 14 pages.

The 47 page HWP-200 has a ton of stuff for the beginners from picking techniques, blocking, volume pedal use, chords, 16 pages worth showing chord formulas & scale degrees (1, 3, 5 b7, etc) to help better understand how the chords are built. Chord progressions, scales, intros, runs, licks, endings, are then explored and 5 songs top it off (Release Me, Dear Heart, Just a Closer Walk With Thee, Columbus Stockade Blues, and Misty).

Herby's page HWP-201 course goes beyond the standard set-up to include three levers. I've learned most about the C6 from Herby's instruction and the Buddy Emmons Basic C6 course the Crowbear mentions than any other & they were reasonably priced.

Many of the contributors on the Forum have helped me with their posts as well. In this thread, the examples given by David Dogett, Greg & Crowbear are cases in point.

Jim, as far as standard C6 setup,a good starting point might be this Forum link for the Jimmy Day setup (G string on top) and also Buddy Emmons' (D string on top) (using only the RKL lever & ignoring the other three in Emmons' case):
http://b0b.com/tunings/stars.html#C6jd

C6 is a ton of fun. steve t

[David Mason]

I did get some basic info from Buddy Emmon's Basic "C6th" as well as both the Herby Wallace books I went through - HWP-200 and HWP-201. I should have clarified my comment to be about chord charts only. Wallace feels that raising the A to a Bb should be a standard change - Emmons lists the C to C# lever as a standard change - this is exactly what Jim Sliff was alluding to, that every person feels their setup is the right one.

I found it difficult early on, to try to play through something in their books that couldn't be played the way it was written. Herby Wallace says "hook up two more of your levers" (p.5 of HWP-201) as though that's something every beginner needs to do to play music.... Emmons says "if you do not have lever (g), I recommend putting putting it on." (sic) I took the initial post to be from someone who wanted to start playing C6th, not start working on the undercarriage of their guitar before they could play anything. In that context, Neil Flanz's book lists chords that work with only one knee lever, the C to B. Trap Truly has graciously put together a free chord chart that requires the 4th string raise (which he attributes to Emmons, though it's not in his Basic C6th book):
http://dogriverpub.com/trap/chords.pdf

I now have both of these raises, as well as a few other lowers (one of which Wallace also says should be standard) but my point was that only one knee is "standard" in location. "Should be" isn't "is"...

[b0b]

I've been curious about C6 as well, as I play mostly an 8-string B6; the tuning is close to the middle-8 of C6 - but I'm curious why there seems to be no consistency as to the 1st string tuning (and often one or two at the bottom), not to mention the copedents are all over the shop - pedal differences, some with one knee lever change, some with 4...

[...]

Is there ANY kind of C6 standard?

[...]

It just seems odd that C6 came first - yet is the least consistent. I'm trying to adapt a C6 neck (in theory for the moment) to B6 but I have to guess what might be on it.

Thoughts, comments, suggestions?

The C6th was very standard - 5 pedals and 1 knee lever, G on top - throughout first 25 years or so of the D-10. Then Buddy switched the top string to D and added the C# lever, and all hell broke lose.

Most C6th playing doesn't even use the first string, so it's not as big a deal as it appears. The D string is now more popular than G, as more people have come realize that the C# lever gives you the same "5th on top" inversion as the old G string. So, if you have D on top, the C# lever is a standard, required change.

As in the E9th world, other knee levers are quite optional. A to Bb is very popular, followed by A to Ab and "reverse P6" (high E to Eb, middle E to F).

The old standard 4th pedal (both A's to B) is fading away as many people reassign it to the poplar E9th "Franklin" pedal. It was the least used pedal of the original C6th copedent.

Home position for C6th has the foot over P5 and P6. The most common chord positions use one of these pedals or the other. Pressing both together gives you a diminished. While P5 and P6 have a dominate (7th/9th) sound, P7 is more major sounding (6th/Maj9). P8 takes you closer to bebop-style dissonance, and includes the ever-popular "boo-wah" gimmick on the low string.

I hope that this post helps to take some of the mystery out of the copedent. I think that most of the variations that Jim sees are individual players experimenting with jazz chords. The actual standard has been very stable for a long time - basically since Buddy Emmons developed the full 5+4 with D about 35 years ago. That, or the 5+1 subset with G, is what most people play today.

[b0b]

And just to put it in perspective, the E9th has 6 "standard" pedals and levers (3+3), but virtually all new pedal steels come with 3+4 or 3+5. The "extra" levers are set to the player's preference. Some E9th players even tune their 2nd string to C# or D instead of D#, and some forego the low D string to add a lower E.

The C6th world with its basic 5+1 copedent is not so different.

[b0b]

For reference, here are the two basic C6th copedents:

the original 5+1: <center>

</center>
the modern 5+4: <center>

</center>
As you can see, the differences are 1) the first string and 2) the additional knee levers. They have much in common.

[Herby Wallace]

I agree 100% with what Bob said. I had stated in my earlier post that the 5 pedals and 1 knee lever was considered a standard setup except for the 1st string and that my HWP-200 course which I call my basic or beginner course only requires the standard setup with 5 and 1. I have a few places where I use the A to Bb change on some songs in other courses, but it is not used that much. Also, my HWP-201 course which I consider to be a little more advanced shows two optional knee levers and explains what they do; however, you can still do everything in this course with 5 and 1. I personally still use the 4th pedal which raises the As to B (whole tone) quite a bit. The minor 9th chords available with this pedal are used in many of the songs I play, so I would hate to not have it. I don't want to keep on about this subject, but for what it's worth, I bought my first 10 string D10 Sho-Bud in 1965 after playing a Fender 1000 for 5 years and when I received the Sho-Bud in 1965, it had 5 pedals and 1 knee lever on C6th which was the same setup that Bob listed above and in 1965 it was considered a standard C6th setup so that amounts to at least 44 years. I bought my first Emmons D10 in 1966 and it came with the same setup as the Sho-Bud. I will shut up for now.

Herby Wallace

[b0b]

Thanks for those insights, Herby.

But you have me stumped here. What's the root note of the minor 9th that you get with P4?

[Edward Meisse]

It would be a rootless Am9. Same notes as CM7. I just confirmed that with the HWP-200 course that I bought from you.

[Herb Steiner]

My setup is b0b's *modern* 5+4 setup.

[Earnest Bovine]

... I have a few places where I use the A to Bb change on some songs in other courses, but it is not used that much. ... I personally still use the 4th pedal which raises the As to B (whole tone) quite a bit.

I like both changes so I have both on the same knee lever. It pulls just the one (middle .020) A string and is probably my most-used lever.