Sho-Bud LDG problem....

Ask Kjaergaard · Post by **Ask Kjaergaard** » 19 Jun 2009 6:18 am

When I use my E lever (E to D#) and release it again, the fourth string E-note comes back a bit sharp. It seems to me that the return spring for this string is pulling off. If this is the problem, how do I fix it?...

thanks,
A.K.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 19 Jun 2009 8:08 am

Turn your guitar upside down
Engage the lever -- let off of it slowly
Look at the lower changer finger for that string
Is it extending further than the other fingers?
Can you push it back with your finger and have it return to proper pitch?

If so the return spring may be the culprit. Shortening / tightening that spring is a possible solution. Look carefully for any places where binding can occur -- from the lever linkage and bellcrank down to the changer itself. If nothing is binding up, it is probably the return spring. Since most Buds do not have adjustable return springs you'll probably have to remove a coil or two and rebend the end.

Good luck.

Ask Kjaergaard · Post by **Ask Kjaergaard** » 19 Jun 2009 8:55 am

Thanks for your reply Larry. The lower finger of that string does extend a bit further than the others. I can't push it further back, but I can, however, push the lower finger from side to side... Doing that doesn't really affect the pitch, though.

In general, if I engage a raise, should the lower not move at all?

-A.K.

Marco Schouten · Post by **Marco Schouten** » 19 Jun 2009 11:29 pm

Also, you must check that the rollers are turning completely smoothly.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 20 Jun 2009 5:35 am

Ask,
It's possible that the lower finger might MOVE slightly -- side to side -- while that string is raised -- that is not a problem. If it ENGAGES then that's a problem. If the return spring is too tight it is possible that the lower finger might engage at the end of the travel. It might raise ALMOST all the way and then slightly lower at the end of the pull.

I don't have a Sho-Bud any longer so I can't fully visualize the problem. Perhaps someone with more experience will help.

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 20 Jun 2009 5:43 am

If the lowering finger extends further out than the other fingers and you cannot push it back to be in line with the others it is probably being held there by the lower adjusting pull being too tight. There needs to be free play in all pedals and levers before they engage in insure that they are all coming back to rest- the zero point- before being activated. In this case you might have to adjust that lever's stop to allow for more travel in order to allow for the change to properly achieve its full excursion.

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 20 Jun 2009 7:35 am

You're getting some great advice here by Larry and Jim.
I would venture to say that it is the raise section that is the culprit. I would need to know....Is this the mechanism with an adjustable return/lower spring or is it the hook on?? Also; is there a raise spring attached??(that's the longer spring that lays against the body and hooks to a bracket on the body).
First I would; without engaging the pedal that raises the 4th a whole tone; or the lever that raises it a half tone; detune the raises at the end plate a 1/2 turn. If that affected the open E note; there's your prob. So without those affecting the open E; Tune the E note open...then engage pedal and if it doesn't reach the pitch you desire> give yourself more distance at the stop for that pedal; and for the knee lever too.
Then try lowering and tune your lower and see if that makes the change there and back??
If not; than take off the raise spring; or un-hook it from the bracket; and then retune your lower and see if that does it. If not; than if you do have adjustable lower/return spring; loosen it a turn or two; so that the lower has just enough tension/return to come back to pitch; and too loose it will actually come back a tad flat...so you want it to just come back enough.
If you do loosen the lower/return spring; you'll then need a little more distance to the stop on the pedal; because now the raise section will react slower and needs more travel.
It's a balancing act....ha....but you'll get it.
And like mentioned; make sure the roller rolls free. And if none of this works; than you'll need to take the finger out and clean pivots> or if it's the later model changer fingers(double double; or triple double; I have a whole nother prob. for you with how the wear happens on the inside of the finger assembly)
Here's a small tutorial I wrote for a guy asking questions about the springs on a shobud; I call> "tuning the springs"....it may enlighten you more:
[tab]
Yes all those lower springs serve a purpose…..not just in the lowering.
They are there also to stabilize the lower section when you raise a string.

Take for instance.

If you raise your 1st string say a whole tone on E9th…..>if you tighten the lower spring almost all the way…..>you will find that that raise with happen much easier and sooner; as making that lower section more tight….>the raise section will move more freely.

AS for the strings that lower…..Yes you want the lower springs just tight enough so that the lower will come back to pitch….> and maybe a couple turns just tighter….so that it will not have to be adjusted again.

Also take for instance the 3rd and 6th string raise on the B pedal…..>you’ll notice that they don’t particularly move together; as it takes more travel and throw to pull the 3rd string up to pitch than the 6th string.

So to make them pull more even…..Loosen the lower spring on the 6th string half way….and tighten the lower spring on the 3rd string almost all the way and leave the raise spring on….>so with that what you are doing is stabilizing that 3rd string lower section very tight…so that the raise on the 3rd will happen more quickly and then it might move with the now lazier 6th string more so and taking the raise spring off the 6th string helps almost perfectly....but for sure if you use a .012p for the 3rd and .022w for the 6th; then they become dead perfect…..>make sense???

Also another trick……on those little Raise springs that are next to the body and attach to the raise portion of the finger and onto a bracket on the body of the guitar.

Those help strings raise…..so have them on the ones that raise…….and if you don’t have them on the ones that lower….>than of course the lower will happen more freely and moreso……>so here’s another trick I have with them.

Take the 4th string and 8th string lowers…>well you’ll notice that they don’t particularly move together also…..cause the 4th string needs more throw/distance than the 8th. So to get them to move together better…..I like to take off the raise spring of the 4th…..and leave it on the 8th…..>so now the 4th will lower quicker and the 8th will drag behind a little cause the raise spring is on 8th and not on the 4th and the 8th will drag behind because of the raise spring inhibiting the lower……so now they will move better together….

Ok there’s your little “Spring” lesson for the day…
Have fun.

Ricky
[/tab]

Ask Kjaergaard · Post by **Ask Kjaergaard** » 21 Jun 2009 4:37 am

I checked the roller, and nothing's wrong there.
Jim, I adjusted the stop and I think the pull rod has enough slack now. Also the lower finger doesn't extend further out than the others anymore.

Ricky, there are raise springs attached to a bracket (hook on mechanism). It's not adjustable. I tried detuning the raises without engaging pedal, and it didn't affect the open E pitch. So I guess that's not the problem.
I'm a bit nervous about taking the raise spring off the bracket. Can I damage anything by doing that.
I've posted a picture of the changer. Don't know if that helps.
Thanks for all the great advice, guys.

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 21 Jun 2009 6:31 am

Ask; I see from the under pic. that you do have the lastest model changer fingers. I'm sorry to say that I believe now the hang up is the finger itself. On these later model shobuds...>the top piece that is made out of Chromed pot metal; has a extended piece that goes down; that the lower arm pushes with a bent piece....and what happens is the metal of that lower arm wears a groove in the top piece; and makes for a inconsistant secure moving position.
You won't hurt anything unhooking the raise spring; you still might try that....but I'm fairly sure it is the wear in the finger that is happening....seen it many many times. I have fixed that prob. by taking the finger out...and bending that piece from the lower arm IN some; so that it is not pushing in that groove. But if you're not verse enough to take the fingers out; you need somebody that is.
Ricky

Ask Kjaergaard · Post by **Ask Kjaergaard** » 24 Jun 2009 5:56 am

Ricky, I'll try removing the raise spring when I get the time. Hopefully that helps...
Your tutorial on tuning the springs is quite interesting. Are you saying that the return springs should be so tight, that the lower finger doesn't move AT ALL when raising a string?... Can you damage anything by tightening the return spring too much?

thanks,
AK

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 24 Jun 2009 9:16 am

Ask; the answer is NO you can't damage anything by tightening the lower return spring. It may make a stiffer pull to lower....but that raise section can move much quicker if need be; by tightening that lower spring. On yours; however, you would have to either unhook one end and give it a turn; or take off and cut off a link or two. That's the downside to having non-adjustable return springs.
If that doesn't work....I can guide you on how to take out the first 4 fingers(cause we really only need to fix that 4th finger) and you can either switch with a finger that doesn't have the wear; or I can tell you how to bend in that upper piece of the lower arm; to hit a freasher spot on the top piece....No prob.
Ricky

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 24 Jun 2009 2:09 pm

You might wanna straighten out the pull on some of those caddywampus springs too. Everything works better when everything is pullin' in a straight line. Them thar off center springs are gonna be tryin' to pull those fingers off to the side! Look how bad they were on my ancient R&B ShoBud!

Ask Kjaergaard · Post by **Ask Kjaergaard** » 26 Jun 2009 11:19 am

Ricky, I flipped the steel over to unhook the raise spring, and when I took a closer look, I noticed that there was no raise spring on the 4th string finger...

So I guess the former owner removed it. I'd really appreciate it if you could describe how to take out the fingers.

thanks,
AK

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 26 Jun 2009 6:05 pm

WEll you need to email me for that.
sshawaiian@austin.rr.com

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 27 Jun 2009 7:37 am

WEll I emailed Ask my proceedure; but got to thinking if someone else could use this tutorial, I'll post it here. Of course you can use this to take all the fingers out; as I'm sure there are wear/grooves on the fulcrum piece on all these later model pot metal tops.

Ok here's what ya do.
Take off strings 1 through 4. and you can just loosen strings 5 through 10 a little just to take some tension off the axle.
Make a note of where all the rods are hooked on the pullers for strings 1 - 4 and which finger hole they are all in; before taking rods out. Take all rods out from strings 1 - 4; by unscrewing all the nylon tuners off....>then unhook the rods from pullers and take out.
Now take off all return springs 1 - 4 and unhook any raise springs from bracket.
Now take a screw driver and put it on the end of the axle on the string 1 side and tap it out with hammer....>each time tap it far enough so that you move the screw driver out and each finger starting with the first comes out underneath...and do each finger one at a time....so you don't accidently go too far so the 5th finger comes out.....ha....
So now you have the first 4 fingers out.....
Clean them....and look at that lower section that comes up and has a bent piece to it that pushes against that top piece that has a arm come down. You will see the wear/groove on that piece that comes down. Now if you have one of those 4 fingers that has no wear....you can use it for the 4th string. But what I do is take a pair of plyers and just squeeze that bent piece in some more....so that it will be pushing now a little beside that groove....or at least not lined up with it anymore....if you hold the finger and work it back and forth; you will feel how it was catching before you bend that; and how it pushes much smoother after you bend it.
Then you're ready to put back in....
Start with string 4 first and feed it back up through the bottom and pound the axle back in; one finger at a time...and when they are all back in.....put your return springs back on...and hook up the raise springs and put your rods back in....then put your strings back on....then screw your nylon tuners back in and your ready to tweak your tuning back.
it will work so much better.
have fun.
Ricky