Do you GFI Ultra players experience detuning tendencies ?

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

As I'm planning to buy a new GFI S12 Universal, I've tested the GFI models that are available to me here in Norway - mainly a GFI Expo S10.
Sound: ok, playability: ok, pedal/lever action: ok. So far so good.

However, that EXPO was detuning noticeable on string 6 when I pushed P1 and/or LKL to raise string 5 and 10 and string 4 and 8. String 6 then returned to true note when I released pedal/levers for the other strings. Such detuning (some call it "cabinet-drop" or "body-sway") is totally unacceptable, but this was an Expo S10 which I have no intention of buying. It is the Ultra S12 I'm interested in.

I will take the question about stability and possible detuning up with GFI before going any further and maybe place an order. After all: the local GFI sales people didn't have a clue about tuning pedal steels, and the pedals/levers was tuned all over the place when I arrived - they may have destroyed that poor thing permanently for all I know.

I'd me mighty happy if some GFI steelers/owners will chime in with their experience, as I certainly don't want to buy a new instrument that has built-in detuning problems. Can't believe a steel like GFI Ultra with keyless should come with such problems, but I don't want to pay a lot of money and wait several months just to find out that it does and has to be scrapped or fixed.

So my question is: do any of you GFI Ultra E9/Universal steelers/owners experience any audible, or measurable, (however small) detuning of any strings when you push pedals/levers for other strings?

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

Georg, maybe it would help if you could check one out in person. Gustav Haugedal in Skien has an Ultra SD 10 E9
Maybe it wouldn't hurt to pay Gustav a visit...just a nice Sunday drive for you Smile

His # is 35521537

Edited: To me the S 10 on a double body is far more stable. I believe this goes for any make of steel.
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Sonny Priddy · From: Elizabethtown, Kentucky, USA, R.I.P.

I've Been Playing A SD10 GFI For 4 Or more Years Never Had A Problem Stays In Tune Great. One Of The Best Guitars I've Ever Had. SONNY.

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Bent, thanks. I may take that trip.

The Expo had padding/wider body, but it didn't help that model much Smile

I want an Sd12, which should be as stable as they get - any make.

Sonny, good to hear - I was getting worried.

Now, just to make sure we understand "stays in tune" the same way: if you hit string 3 and 6 and let these two strings ring out while pushing/releasing all pedal/lever combinations that do not affect those strings, do you get a (change in) beating between string 3 and 6 ?

Brett Day · From: Pickens, SC

My GFI Ultra D-10 stays in tune very well.

Brett

richard burton · From: Britain

There are very few steels that don't exhibit detuning.

I use a wound sixth and a certain method of tuning to get around the 'cabinet drop' issue.

I was very pleasantly surprised to notice that my new (to me) Marlen pull-release steel has virtually nil detuning issues, amazing Very Happy

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

Georg, do you know how bad this steel de-tuned? Are you saying 5 or 6 cents?

we can(and have to) live with a couple of cents cab drop. Looks like every steel has it.

I suppose if you built one out of an 8" I-beam there would be no drop. But it's this thing about balancing weight and de-tuning.

It is interesting to know that some steels need compensators while others don't.

My homebuilt prototype, built out of 7/8" birdseye maple has very little drop...2.5 cents on a bad day. But the weight is a bit high...41 lbs.
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Dennis Wood · From: Savannah, TN USA

I purchased a GFI U12, from a forum member about 2 months ago. I couldn't be more satisfied with this guitar. I haven't taken my Sierra to a gig since receiving the GIF. I have three pulls on my A pedal and three pulls on my zero pedal. Very little detuning. I bought the GFI to have a spare guitar to leave setup at home, but it is so light, easy to set up and sounds great, it has become my main gigging guitar. I like my GFI so well, I plan to buy another GFI U12 sometime in the near future.
DW
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Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I have an Ultra S-10 the was originally tuned to E9, but has since been changed to a crazy iteration of Sneaky Pete's B6. I mention the tuning/copedent because it relies heavily on FOUR splits to get all the changes I use.

In E9 it had zero "detuning" or cabinet drop. I was concerned more in B6 with the splits, as I might not notice a small drop in E9 but a split would be horrible with the tiniest bit of detuning.

I don't have strobes but a tech friend (with an extremely busy full-time shop) does, and we hooked the Ultra up to multiple strobes set for certain frequencies after making the change (which was accomplished with an incredible amount of support from both Ed Bierly, who worked out the layout, and GFI who supplied parts and added a few tweaks to make it work flawlessly). We wanted to tune the changes first, then the splits, then play every change/split and see what effect it had on OTHER strings.

There were NO changes anywhere. Not even the slightest drop - or raise. So not only do the splits hit the intended notes dead-on, nothing else is tossed out of whack.

I can't say anything about the Expo, never having seen one - but the Ultra is the only guitar I've played other than my old Fenders that exhibits absolutely zero "detuning".
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Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Bent, although I didn't check numbers at the time, string 6 was swaying more than 10 cents, probably as much as 20 cents when pulling on pedals/levers for other strings. Awful. Makes me believe they'd ruined the instrument by over-tuning those rods or whatever. I spent half an hour tuning pedals/levers back to normal, some from from as much as two half-notes too high, before being able to play that thing at all. Didn't have time to tune everything to perfection, but got it close enough for comfort - apart from the detuning problem.

Now I just want to make sure it was that showroom-instrument that was bad, bad, bad, and that such a degree of detuning is not a known GFI weakness. Couldn't come up with any better place to ask but here.

Later that same day I played a bit on a Carter D10 at a fellow steeler's place, and although the Carter wasn't quite as stable as I'm used to either, it was well within acceptable, and playable, range.

FWIW: all fully equipped E9 pedal steels will need a few compensators if one wants to tune all chords for all pedal/lever combinations to natural scales - "just intonation" (search for Eivind Groven). Of course, one uses the bar for fine-tuning on the fly, but unless one accepts tempered tuning/sound one has to pitch some strings to meet various natural chords. Most of these pitches are tunable on the pedals/levers already, but one or more strings - string 1 for instance - will need adjustments for open tuning. That is NOT in any way compensating for detuning, but for "just intonation". (Tror vi må ha en prat om kompensatorer vs. kompensatorer Smile

)

Should be no real problem building a pedal steel with inaudible detuning. My converted Dekley with its floating laminated aluminum neck/bridge-carrier has no audible detuning, and it weighs less than your prototype BenRom too Winking

I neither have the equipment, the time or the knowledge to build complete pedal steels now though, so that will have to wait a few years. Right now I want to buy a really good steel - preferably a GFI Ultra S12 Uni but there are other options, so I can continue to "wreck" my old 'Dekley GS' in search of better solutions.

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Brett, Dennis: sounds good, and makes me relax a bit regarding GFI's stability. I found all else good on the GFI I tested, so they'd probably just ruined the mechanics on that particular instrument.

Jim: that is really interesting, as not many steels can take such extensive changes of setup without giving in ever so slightly. My Dekley, with original neck/bridge construction in place, couldn't take a full-tone lowering of string 3 without detuning other strings. After the neck/bridge conversion it can take that and a lot more.

Tor Arve Baroy · From: Norway

I`ve got a GFI expo in great working condition in Kvinesdal!
You are welcome to take a trip over and try it if you want Smile

I am also a steel-tech for guitarhuset.no....but I can tell you that I have had nothing to do with the mecanics that display model, but I am aware of the fact that it aint to great.... Rolling Eyes

You can contact give me a call one day if you want!

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

There is the possibility you may be pushing far too hard on the pedals. Activate the pedal with your hand, and then use only enough force for the pedal to hit the stop. Then come back and tell us how much drop you have.

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

Donny, shouldn't the stop be strong enough to withstand normal knee pressure + a little bit?
Hand pressure..just til it stops, is unrealistic and unusable for testing the way I see it.
The mechanism has to be able to withstand the knee pressure since, in the heat of the moment on stage, during a fast song where you hit a knee with great speed, there is no time to think about gentle pressure.
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Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Donny: I did move the levers by hand while checking the detuning, but no matter the force (or lack of it) used on pedals/levers, it detuned the open 6th string just as much. Not that it should matter, as a steel that can't take that its pedals/levers are pushed and released quickly and that a reasonable amount of force is used, without it detuning open strings, is so delicate that it would be of no use to me anyway.

I ain't a heavy guy and I don't have a habit of bending levers or stoppers, but I don't treat steels as pure show-pieces either.

Tor Arve: thanks for the offer, but I asked the people in gitarhuset.no in advance to set up an S10 Ultra in that showroom, and only accepted to test the S10 Expo because it was the only steel there when I arrived. I'm otherwise not particularly interested in the Expo, and only wanted to know if its behavior were typical for GFI steels.

For now I've moved the GFI down on my short-list while looking for better options. I'm in no hurry, and I rather wait till I've found one that meets my standards before placing an order anywhere. Cost isn't an issue, but quality definitely is. I don't intend to shop around for new steels all that often, so the one I buy now better sound well, work well and last.

John Poston · From: Albuquerque, NM, USA

I had this very problem on an Ultra S10. I bought it used and had to change a unique Bb setup to normal E9. It worked great for years and then this problem appeared. I've changed the setup a few times so possibly due to something I did incorrectly.

The company has been very helpful and it actually should be getting there today for them to take a look at. Maybe in a couple days I'll have more to report on.

Steve Norman · From: Seattle Washington, USA

Im a gfi d10 ultra owner for about 4 years. Only problem I have had is with the 6 string returning a few cents sharp after releasing my RKL. My cab drop is not bad during a/f or ab at all. hard to believe it drops 20 cents without some kind of hang up or loose part. could spring tension be an issue? maybe the 6th spring needs a little tightening. I honestly think its a fluke as most people I talk to regard GFI as some of the best built guitars out there. The Expo is there cheaper line, but 20 cents sounds more like a problem uncommon to any pro built guitar. I would flip it over and see if a changer is moving that shouldnt be when the a/f is engaged.

BTW I am pretty rough on mine as well so they are well built.
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Jim Peters · From: St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.

I had an intermittent problem with a keyless Ultra S10. It had a Franklin Pedal, which seemed to have something to do with it, but it didn't do it all the time. drove me nuts! Never did figure it out. JP
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John Coffman · From: Wharton,Texas USA

All steels tend to detune a little. Some more than others. GFI steels are about as good as it gets unless you want to step up to a Zum. I love my GFI Ultra. Never a tuning issue and it plays well. My Thomas steels have less cabinet drop but weigh about 20 to 30 more lbs. Most people can not even hear 10 cent in change. I think too many people worry about little issues and miss the joy of just playing. Steel guitars have mechanically come a long way were there is many great guitars on the market. They are sometimes to perfect. MTCW
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Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

John Coffman: the way I play and adjust my gear, I hear the beating of a sour note against the others in a chord quite easily. Beating is what I correct for with the bar on the fly, so my ear, mind and reflexes are well trained to catch any.

I listen for audible beats pr second, not bothering much with cents on a tuner, when I determine if a string stays in tune or not. If I can hear beating, so can others.

I don't exactly know what league ZumSteel is in in this respect, although I've heard it's quite good. Zum is not on my short-list - for other reasons, while GFI Ultra still is.

Now I'm checking the possibility, and cost, of getting a custom made S12 steel with small enough tolerances when it comes to detuning - below 1 cent all over should do. Can probably buy two good steels for the price of a custom made one, but that's not important when it quite possibly will be the last steel I'll ever buy - at least for regular use. Will know more when I've test-driven one some time this summer, and made sure the sound pleases my ear. I already know the mechanics is up to my standards.

Others: I'm quite pleased with the way the people at GFI have responded to my various inquiries, so no problem there.
I'm also reasonably sure I would be able to improve on any inherent detuning issues an otherwise good, new, GFI Ultra S12 might have, I'm just not particularly interested in fixing a new instrument right away.

The GFI Expo I tested at the local dealer may have had one or more of a whole series of mechanical problems that contributed to the detuning. Problems I could have sorted out if I've had that "thing" at my place for a day or two. Placing a defect steel in a showroom and leave to potential customers to fix it, is not a good way to promote sales though.

David Doggett · Posted 22 Jun 2009 9:06 pm

My Zum S12U has a few cents cabinet drop, and so has every other top brand I have owned. If the Es drop less than 5 cents when the A and B pedal are pressed, that's tolerable, and about as good as it gets. 12-string unis drop a little more than 10-strings, because many of the pedals raise three strings, and the extra one is lower and heavier gauged.

The cabinet can flex, especially at the changer cut-out, which is the weakest spot. In fact, some builders say complete elimination of cabinet flex kills resonance and tone. But also, there is inevitably tiny slack or flex in the hardware, such as the changer axle, nut rollers, tuners, pull rods, hex tuners, and possibly the attachment sites of the changer and keyhead. These individually imperceptible tolerances add up with the cabinet flex.

If the drop is more than about 4 cents (1 Hz) on a modern pedal steel, there's probably something wrong. I doubt if any of them are more than that when they come from the factory.

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

a steelin' buddy here i know well has a 2004 GFI D10
his horn has a detuning tendency on string 6 ( minus 4 cents)when he engages pedal A on string 5 & 10
he finds that the chord noticeably is out of tune on string 6
once he lets go of pedal A, string 6 (G#) comes back in tune

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

CrowBear: that describes the GFI Expo I tested exactly, only, "noticeably" would be an understatement in my case.

David D.: that the cabinet resonance matters is obvious, but it isn't obvious that a steel guitar's cabinet has to flex where, and in such directions that, it affects the string tension. Most flexing and slack between parts just cause rattling-noises, and I can't imagine any serious steel builder wants to preserve that noise as part of an instrument's character. Maybe I'm wrong on that point.

4 cents detuning is definitely noticeable, but is within what can be corrected with the bar in most cases. Not that I would be happy with a professional steel that detuned that much when I pushed pedals - around or lower than 1.5 cent "sounds better".

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