First Pedal Steel (Pro S10 vs. Student D10)

Michael Witwicki · Post by **Michael Witwicki** » 15 Jun 2009 6:56 am

Hey all,

I'd like to apologize for all the newbie stuff I've been posting here, and I promise to lay off a bit as I get a little more settled into this stuff. That said, I have one more question I would love to pose to the group.

So I've dug through the forum and found a lot of great recommendations for the direction that new players should take when picking out their instruments.

I know I want to start with a used pro model, mostly because i've bought/sold enough guitars in my life to know that I want something which will hold it's resale. But given my current budget for a first instrument, it appears (after speaking with quite a few folks) that I have enough to buy a very solid S10, but probably not a D10.

My feeling is, particularly where i am JUST starting out - there is going to be enough to learn in the first few years on a single neck...and if I have a nice pro model and decide that I need a D10 in the future, I can upgrade when I'm ready. Does this logic seem sound to everyone? Am I REALLY going to be missing that much (in the first few years) without having the second neck?

Thanks again all!

- Michael Witwicki

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 15 Jun 2009 9:03 am

Michael, you should probably concentrate on learning E9th. Unless you are super talented, it will take some time to learn, even longer to master, if that's possible. So there is nothing wrong with buying an S-10, just make sure that it is a modern guitar, with at least 4 knee levers. You can easily find one like that for a reasonable price. Take some lessons, practice a lot, learn techniques that have been proven to work over many years. You might want to sell the first guitar after a while, and get a D-10, as long as you have bought a good used pro model, you will be able to get most of your money back to use toward another instrument. Good luck.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 15 Jun 2009 9:05 am

never saw a student D-10

Michael Witwicki · Post by **Michael Witwicki** » 15 Jun 2009 9:07 am

Haha! Calvin, I think that might make the decision for me then, eh? Thanks!

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 15 Jun 2009 9:17 am

As I've said before on this type of thread;
"If I knew then, what I know now, U-12 without a doubt." You can start with all the E9th stuff, and work your way up.

Tom Quinn · Post by **Tom Quinn** » 15 Jun 2009 11:09 am

Please tell me about the pro players that play a S12 either in the studio or on the road... :- )

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 15 Jun 2009 12:14 pm

Ask me that in a few more years. Have you ever played one?
Besides that, I'm only expressing my own opinion. I loved switching from my D-10 to my Uni. So much more easy to manage. Of course, YMMV.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 15 Jun 2009 4:03 pm

these 10 have kept me busy for going on 7 years
my head would hurt just thinking about 12

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 15 Jun 2009 5:01 pm

Student guitars (S10's) usually run from $700-$1200. "Pro" model S10's start at about $1900, and go up...way up. D10 student guitars are few and far between, probably because the general concensus is that if you're ready for a D10, you should get a pro model.

Rick Winfield · Post by **Rick Winfield** » 16 Jun 2009 2:34 am

I started out on a 73 Marlen D10,(8x4) then went to a 08 Carter s10DB.(3x5) I miss the C6 neck, but I love the easier pulls.
Hope to change eventually to a U12
Rick

Scott Hiestand · Post by **Scott Hiestand** » 16 Jun 2009 8:20 am

I too have never heard of a student D-10. But regardless...

An S-10 (E9 tuning) can keep you busy for a lifetime. Does that mean you shouldn't/won't want to learn an alternate tuning someday, such as C6? Of course not. But you can literally spend years and work on nothing but "technique" on one neck, if that suits your fancy. It really depends on your goals and I understand that being a beginner, your "goals" may not even be clear to you. But rest assured, you can cover most musical styles from Country to Rock to Alt. Country to Jazz....just about anything....on E9. If you were going to strictly play Jazz or Swing and nothing else, then yes, the "standard" answer would be to learn C6. But there are no "rules". Just look at what Lloyd Green did on E9. And...you can always upgrade if you feel the need.

Jonathan Mitguard · Post by **Jonathan Mitguard** » 16 Jun 2009 5:56 pm

Tom Quinn wrote:Please tell me about the pro players that play a S12 either in the studio or on the road... :- )

Jeff Newman RIP, Joe Wright, David Phillips, Barry Sless, Me to name a few.

If you start with a S-10 pro model you'll be able to transition to a SU-12 which gives you practically two necks in one. I switched over to this from a D-10, 24 years ago and never looked back. The only hazard of not having a sixth neck right away is you can get stuck in the E9th world (which aint a bad place to be) and have a hard time learning the sixth tuning. So the quick SU-12 lesson is lower the Es and you have B6. You can start doing this right off the bat with any E9 tuning. I have always wondered why more players don't go this route if for nothing else but to carry much less weight and real estate. If you want a huge number of changes perhaps a single neck becomes more problematic, but my 8 and 5 set up is at least a couple of life times of learning. Good luck and welcome to Pedal steel land.

Ben Elder · Post by **Ben Elder** » 16 Jun 2009 6:53 pm

Delete one Student vote. I initially took the question as "Did you" as opposed to "Do you recommend."

I wouldn't recommend much of anything I've done.

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 16 Jun 2009 7:26 pm

Start off w/ a used pro S-10 and just focus on learning the basic E9th stuff for now.

You'll know when you need either a D-10 or a S-12 Uni a few years down the road. At that point, you'll be better informed to make an intelligent decision about which option better suits you.

Scott Hay · Post by **Scott Hay** » 16 Jun 2009 9:45 pm

I think Tony's advice is good.

Get a used professional model S-10, you won't regret it, and if you decide to sell it or "upgrade" or switch to a different guitar - you'll be able to get most of in not all of your money back easy. I think 4 knee levers is important, personally.

With pro models you can change your copendent too, which on some of the student models you can not.

There are good deals to be had on good guitars here pretty regularly in my opinion. Good luck!

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 17 Jun 2009 12:46 am

There may be some true "student model" D-10 pedal steels, but the closest thing I've ever seen to one is a Sierra Artist D-10. Even though it was made as a lightweight and relatively inexpensive steel, it's a full triple-raise, triple-lower changer and the copedent can be changed at will. So for all intents and purposes, I still have never seen a true "student model" D-10, in the sense of a permanently-fixed copedent guitar with other economy features.

I would get a fully professional steel to start. There have been several older BMI, Dekley, and MSA pedal steels on this forum in the last month for around the $1000 price range - every one of these I've played (I still own a BMI) has been a professional-grade instrument with solid mechanics. Some people like the tonality of these, some don't, but the same can also be said of many other steels, including some well-respected and high-end professional makes. Tone preferences are completely subjective, but solid mechanics - stays in tune, solid stops, good pedal action, and so on - are not.

Myself, I started on an Emmons student model S-10 with 3 pedals and 1 knee, which is a push-pull guitar. It was a very good sounding guitar, but I struggled getting it to play right and stay in tune. I suppose if I had taken the time to grok push-pull mechanics it might have been OK, but I wanted to focus on playing and 3+1 was a limitation pretty quickly. Newer student model guitars like the Carter, GFI, and Zum Stage One typically have a full modern 3+4 setup, but I'd still suggest a pro guitar onto which you can eventually put your own setup. If you get serious about this, you will discover that there are various advantages and disadvantages to each way of configuring pedals and levers.

On S-10 vs. D-10 vs. S-12 universal, there are several considerations. First, S-10 can come in a single-width body (S-10) or double-width body (SD-10). This can have profound implications for ergonomics - I'm tall, and gradually I am finding that a narrow S-10 body just doesn't cut it for me. I require at least a single-and-a-half width (I have a universal like that), but a double-width body is definitely more comfortable. Then the second issue is whether or not you think you want to eventually play C6. I think that anybody wanting to focus on western-swing or jazz in general should just get a D-10 or a 12-string universal right away. In fact, there are used pro-model D-10 and U-12 guitars available for reasonable prices from time to time - the same brands, MSA, Dekley, and BMI, come up like this. A disadvantage is that they tend to be heavy, but I think they are good, solid guitars, and tonality can be adjusted significantly by pickup choice. If you're very patient, even some modern D-10's and U-12's come up from time to time - for example, I've seen Carter U-12's come up less than $1500 and D-10's for around $1600-1800. Carter pro model guitars are excellent - I have a U12. No doubt some other more modern guitars like this come up also. The key is to carefully research the market, know what you're looking for, and then exercise discipline and patience.

As Jonathan says, there are plenty of excellent players who ply or have plied their craft on a universal guitar. I have both U12 and D-10 guitars and switch between them more or less routinely. They each have useful applications, and the basic E9 and some type of 6th tuning is available on both. I am leaning more to D-10 these days, but I don't think it should make much difference to a beginner if you keep in mind that you may want to change at some point and that it's no big deal if you are willing to take a bit of time to grok the new setup.

Just another take. I don't think this choice makes that much difference - the BIG thing is to get a guitar you're really going to be comfortable playing. This thing is tough enough without fighting the machine.

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First Pedal Steel (Pro S10 vs. Student D10)

First Pedal Steel: Used Pro S10 or Student D10?

First Pedal Steel (Pro S10 vs. Student D10)

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S-10 then SU-12