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Topic: What contstitutes a "student model" PSG? |
James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 9 Jun 2009 7:13 pm |
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Maybe this should be made into a sticky.
I've seen a lot of "student" steels on eBay and want to eventually make the transition from non-pedal to psg. However, I'm unsure where the sacrifices are made and what corners are cut. Assuming that I want a S10 or SD10 with standard setup. Is it mechanical? Is it tone? Is it flexibility (are any steels hardwired for only one tuning/copendent)? Or is it usually cosmetic?
For those of you who purchased student guitars: what was the factor that made you eventually take the step up?
I'll probably get a student model, regardless of my budget, because I want to mod the hell out of it without guilt. Dual pickups with coil split/phase/series/parallel, tone knob, etc. I want to know what I'm getting into if I try to get something for $1000 or under.
There's a GFI Student Model on ebay right now with a $899 buy-it-now price. If it doesn't stay in tune or is audibly squeaky or difficult to play, I will have wasted my time and money.
Last edited by James Mayer on 10 Jun 2009 9:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bobby Snell
From:
Austin, Texas
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Posted 9 Jun 2009 7:59 pm
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| Don't get a student model to mod. You can get a perfectly serviceable used pro-model for around a grand. Then you would have the raised neck to put pickups on, and the flexibility of a changeable mechanism underneath. Student models are suited for students. |
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Bob Blair
From:
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Posted 9 Jun 2009 8:20 pm
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| Just by way of example, a BMI S-10 was recently listed on the buy/sell for 900 bucks - looks like it is sold now. They turn up for sale now and then, as do older MSA S-10's for around the kind of money you are prepared to pay. For all the reasons Bobby said one of those would be a better axe for what you have in mind. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 9 Jun 2009 8:38 pm
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This is a good question, because all student models are not made equal. The older ones skimped both on materials and mechanics. The Sho-Bud Maverick had decent wood, but the body was smaller. The earliest ones didn't have roller nuts, and squeeked as the strings were pulled over the end of the keyhead. They had only one knee lever. They had a pull-release changer that was not designed to be able to raise and lower the same string. The changes were fixed and not user changeable. The legs were light aluminum with not height adjustment. The last of that line had no neck - the fret board was stuck right on the body. And the body was covered with ugly fake wood-grain vinyl.
Modern student models come with a standard 3&4 setup, but most of which are permanent and not user changeable. I believe some of the better ones, such as the Zum and GFI students may have some ability to change the setup. The bodies, legs, etc. are lighter-weight, lighter duty, and basically flimsier than pro models. The pickups are cheaper. Cosmetics are bare-bones. Basically everything about them is cheaper and very minimal. Few, if any, have ergonomic adjustments for where the levers hang.
I agree, if you want to experiment with copedent changes or almost anything else, you are better off with a used pro model. |
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John Allison
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
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Posted 10 Jun 2009 7:31 pm
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James, I can tell where you're coming from having recently ventured into pedal territory myself.
At the risk of seeming preumptious, I'll offer a couple of pieces of advice:
1) If you want to play pedal steel, forget about mods and changes and pickup configurations and learn to play. No matter how many options you have for exotic copedents, you'll spend a really, really long time learning to exploit the possibilities involved with just 2 pedals and 1 knee lever...and you'll love every minute of it.
2) If you're remotely serious about pursuing PSG, bump up your budget. You'll never regret spending everything you can possibly afford on a quality instrument. There's a Mullen D-10(for over 2 grand) in the store down the street from me and it's so smooth and perfectly set up it very nearly plays itself - it's just incredible. I really like the steel I'm playing (or learning to), but there's absolutely no comparison. It makes me want to sell everything else I've got and get that one instrument. A truly well made steel is an amazing thing. There are a lot of good steels out there for under a grand and you'll have fun with whatever you get, but the first time you sit behind a really good one, you'll be wishing you'd saved up your money and waited.
Best of luck...
_________________
John Allison
Allison Stringed Instruments
Austin, Texas
www.allisonguitars.com |
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Jody Sanders
From:
Magnolia,Texas, R.I.P.
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Posted 10 Jun 2009 7:41 pm
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| GFI has a single neck that has all the pro features. It is not a student guitar. Way above that. I believe it is under $1000.00. Jody. |
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Bobby Snell
From:
Austin, Texas
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Posted 10 Jun 2009 8:59 pm
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GFI's are fine guitars; I've never seen a student model. I looked at the website and the student model does not have a raised neck. I couldn't see if the copedant is changeable, but it comes standard with 3&2 with the option of adding 1 or 2 knees. The base price is a little over $1000, with $100 per additional knee.
I guess we need someone with a student GFI to "chime" in! Can the copedant be changed, or pedals added? |
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Calvin Walley
From:
colorado city colorado, USA
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Posted 10 Jun 2009 9:18 pm
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forget it
_________________
proud parent of a sailor
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick
Last edited by Calvin Walley on 10 Jun 2009 9:24 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 10 Jun 2009 9:18 pm
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Hey everyone, thanks for all the advice.
| John Allison wrote: |
1) If you want to play pedal steel, forget about mods and changes and pickup configurations and learn to play. No matter how many options you have for exotic copedents, you'll spend a really, really long time learning to exploit the possibilities involved with just 2 pedals and 1 knee lever...and you'll love every minute of it.
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Would you give the same advice if I told you that I'm not planning any traditional use of the instrument. I'm in an experimental rock band and I really have no interest in learning to sound like any other steeler out there, even though I enjoy listening to them. I need an instrument that is both versatile in possible copedants and different tones. I'm going for my own sound that will be love/hate with most steelers. I hopefully will arrive at my own unique tuning.
It seems that I should get a double neck, but I don't want an instrument that large, nor do I want to spend the extra money. I think 3 pedals and a couple of levers WILL last me a lifetime. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 11 Jun 2009 1:08 am
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| Quote: |
| I think 3 pedals and a couple of levers WILL last me a lifetime. |
It may well do that, but any and all Student Models are geared towards traditional tuning and the basic set-up that goes with it, and won't allow you to do much in the direction of "your own set-up and tuning" before becoming un-playable junk.
An S10 with a pretty basic pedal/lever set-up to begin with, but one that has a really solid frame and flexible and expandable mechanics that'll allow for some DIY, is probably what you need. New or used Pro steels are your only, real, option then, and you really have to check how much DIY a particular instrument can take, and that you can get hold of necessary parts if/when you need them, before buying. |
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John Allison
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2009 5:02 am
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| James Mayer wrote: |
I'm in an experimental rock band and I really have no interest in learning to sound like any other steeler out there, even though I enjoy listening to them.
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I can see why you'd want to have room for experimentation, then.
You might try to find some of Lloyd Maines' steel work with Joe Ely. I'm not sure what all he was doing in the 70's, but at the TSGA jamboree this year, I heard him do a full-on fuzz-tone rock solo that would be the envy of any guitarist...with a straightforwarld 3 and 3 set up.
Another source for ideas might be Pete Kleinow's 8-string Fender stuff - more country rock, but some of the best steel work ever.
You might check into a 6-string PSG from Lone Star Steel Guitars. I've seen and played several of Jim's instruments and they're tops. The 6 will allow you to use guitar pickups for endless tone possibilities and a customized copedent can be as simple or as complex as you want.
PS...if you're still looking for a lap body to experiment with, email me. I think I can fix you up with somethiing. I've been working on developing an 8-string console, and I've probably got an extra body blank around the shop. I've got several good prototype 8-string pickups, too.
_________________
John Allison
Allison Stringed Instruments
Austin, Texas
www.allisonguitars.com |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 11 Jun 2009 7:39 am
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John, that Lone Star S6 may be just what I need. If you read the non-pedal forum, you may have seen my desire to create a movable pickup system. The Lone Star is the first steel that I have seen with such a device. I'm surprised that no one piped up about it in that earlier post.
The S6 addresses FOUR of the biggest reasons why I have almost, but never, bought a PSG.
- weight
- special pickups that don't mix well with the enormous amount of effects that are made for regular guitar pickups.
- lack of tonal variation. Only one pickup and no tone knob seems a little narrow to me.
- string spacing. The only PSG I've played was a real pain in the ass because of the uncomfortable spacing. Actually, I've played a Fender 1000 and the string spacing was much better, but I didn't get on with it for some reason.
What would be the major drawbacks to the S6? Obviously, less strings means less options. But how is the sustain? The legs are closer together than on a standard S10 and I could see that being a bit cramped. How about the resale value?
Anyone ever tried one of these? |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 11 Jun 2009 7:41 am
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| One mod that I'm might suggest to the Lone Star luthier. Make two smaller sliding brackets instead of one. That way the pickups can be moved to neck and bridge at the same time or moved to the distance that he currently has. |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 11 Jun 2009 7:50 am
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| John, about that non-pedal project. I was going to make a steel with the Duesenberg multi-bender and movable pickups. I haven't abandoned the idea, yet, but something like the Lone Star may very well kill it. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 11 Jun 2009 7:51 am
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| James Mayer wrote: |
Would you give the same advice if I told you that I'm not planning any traditional use of the instrument. I'm in an experimental rock band ..... |
In that case, you should have a 12 stringed instrument, which will allow you to play power chords.
| Quote: |
| I think 3 pedals and a couple of levers WILL last me a lifetime. |
3 pedals are fine, but you need at least 3 knee levers. Preferably 4 or 5. Any less is like a guitar with missing frets.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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John Allison
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2009 8:24 am
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James...email and I'll send you my number and you can give me a call. I can tell you a lot about Jim and his instruments (of course you could call him, for that matter) and can relate my experience with pursuits similar to yours. I've done a lot of dabbling with 6, 7, 8 string options in search of the ultimate non-traditional steel.
Look forward to talking with you.
J A
_________________
John Allison
Allison Stringed Instruments
Austin, Texas
www.allisonguitars.com |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 11 Jun 2009 2:42 pm
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| John, I emailed you this morning |
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Don Barnhardt
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2009 3:24 pm
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| If you're wanting to experiment with different tunings you might want to consider a Fender cable pull instrument to begin with and when you get something to suit your taste get a new one built to your specifications. |
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Tommy Shown
From:
Denham Springs, La.
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Posted 12 Jun 2009 12:24 am
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You get what you get with a student model.some like the old Sho-Bud Maverick have 3 pedals and 1 knee lever that raises the 2nd and 8th string from the open E to F. These are very, very basic. As I learned the hard way. There is not a whole lot in learning to play those. The guy who taught me over 30 years ago, told me that I was making a mistake in starting out on a student model steel. He was right because of the fact involving the knee levers. It's just like a car ad you see on TV from your local dealership. They'll say this particular model is on sale for say $20K. That's for the strpped out model. very basic. With hardly anything on it.I know that Carter makes the Magnum which is a D-10 basic with 8 pedals and 4 knee levers. You need the at least 2 knee levers for the E9 neck. My friend told me. in order to help make those sweet sounds.
Tommy |
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Ulf Edlund
From:
Umeå, Sweden
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Posted 12 Jun 2009 3:42 am
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| Quote: |
| What contstitutes a "student model" PSG? |
The constant argumentation about wich one is worst 
_________________
1983 Emmons D10 SKH, Carter SD10, Nashville 112, Session 500, ProfexII, Lapsteels, GT-Beard reso, guitars of all kinds...
http://www.myspace.com/ulfedlund |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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Joseph Barcus
From:
Volga West Virginia
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Posted 12 Jun 2009 5:19 am
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if you spend more time chasing it across the floor ( it might be a student model)
if it only has one knee level on it and its lowers the 8th string only ( it might be a student model)
if theres no way to change the tuning on the pedals or knees because the plate attached to the changer dont have notchs cut out for the fingers to move ( it might be a student model)
heres my 2 cents on this. if you buy a student model for 700.00 keep it for a month or two you will be lucky to even get close to your 700.00 for it in trade or anything else. if you buy a pro model at least you have a better chance of recovering your money. plus syudent models will make you not want to play pedal steel guitar, where as a pro model where the floor pedals are smooth and the knee levels dont have to travel 1/2 mile. well I think you know what I mean.
_________________
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvuH7H8BajODaL_wy3_HSJQ |
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Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 12 Jun 2009 7:21 am Here Goes
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Slim, slender attractive great smile great curves long smooth legs good posture. She should not be adverse to worlking in lingere, bathing suitss, bikinis etc, Okay you get the picture, couldn't resist
_________________
"Oh what a tangled web we weave when we first begin to deceive" Someone Famous |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 15 Jun 2009 3:56 pm
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Way to kill a thread, Robert. 
I just put down a deposit on a Lone Star S6 "lite". Jim was willing to make two independent sliding brackets for the pickups and other mods as well. I should have it in Sept, hopefully.
I guess that makes this a successful thread. |
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