Which Distortion/OD?

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 23 May 2009 6:44 am

Here's an opportunity to tout your faves although it would be most helpful to me if you read what I'm needing:

Going into a CLEAN amp, whether a Twin, a Webb, a Steel King or a Powerblock:

I need something that can dial down the gain enough to give me nothing more than the little bit of gravel that you would get with a JUST BARELY DRIVEN tube amp. Even as little 'dirt' as Lloyd's Deluxe Reverb in "You Ain't Going Nowhere"---just that little bit that goes beyond pristine clean. Nothing I have cleans up enough.

I have:

Sparkle Drive: although you can mix the clean/dirty, it just doesn't have the sound I want

Keeley Boss DS-1: GREAT rock sound for rhythm playing but too much dirt for this quest

Line 6 Crunchtone (Tonecore): surprisingly good. I'm still considering if I can use this. some real versatility but....I dunno...

Keeley TS9: need to spend more time with this. I don't think I'm a tube screamer kinda guy but I'm not sure yet

Boss Turbo Overdrive OD-2: some really goods sounds in there but not what I'm talking about here

I've got nothing boutiquey yet (well, Keeley...) and I'm willing to consider going that way for the right pedal.

I will definitely use at least one of the above on this pedalboard too so this pedal I'm seeking doesn't need to cover maximum ground. But so far nothing I've got covers this ultra low gain turf.

Bring it.

Jan Jonsson · Post by **Jan Jonsson** » 23 May 2009 7:23 am

Hi Jon,

Throughout the last couple of years I've been on the quest for a good Distortion/OD box for my pedal steel. My earlier attempts (including pedals such as Ibanez TS9, Maxon 808, Boss BD and TIM) have not been very successful so I had almost given up the search. But, thanks to forum members Dan Tyack and David Doggett and their persistent praise of the Seymour Duncan Twin Tube Classic, I have finally found something that gives a really good touch-sensitive low-gain distortion when playing into clean amps.

On the following web page there are several live sound clips where I use the Twin Tube on the pedal steel, both with low-gain and higher-gain setting. The amps are a Fender Princeton Reverb in parallel with a Fender Steel King.

http://www.myspace.com/flatfivesociety

-- Jan

Bari Smith · Post by **Bari Smith** » 23 May 2009 8:13 am

I worked in a retail music store for 10 years and had at my disposal every imagineable OD/Dist device.IMHO......the Seymour Duncan Twin Tube is by far the best choice for STEEL!!!!!Dial up anything ya want...pic sensitive and true bypass!Not cheap but worth the bucks!!

John Phinney · Post by **John Phinney** » 23 May 2009 8:39 am

I'm a huge fan of the BYOC Mighty Mouse. I can dial in anything from a little grit to out of control wall of mind crushing fuzz, it's like having 6 different pedals.

http://www.buildyourownclone.com/mouse.html

I've used a TS9, Creamy Dreamer, Rat, PODxt, Danoelectric OD and none of them are on my current pedal board.

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 23 May 2009 8:54 am

Here are a few reasonable 9v battery powered considerations:

Hermida ZenDrive

Xotic AC Booster

Nobels ODR-1

Rat

Fulltone OCD

Boss OD-1

Brad

Steve Hotra · Post by **Steve Hotra** » 23 May 2009 9:51 am

Fulltone Fulldrive Mosfet II into a Jazzkat Tomkat.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 23 May 2009 11:12 am

Great stuff, guys. Thanks. One comment re: BYOC----they are a rip off. I bought a delay from them like four years ago and it is still sitting in the shipping envelope doing nothing. What's with that?
My way of saying uh, I think I better not be ordering any more kits for the time being. I would consider a pre-built Mouse, though, and it is on my list of options.
As are a few of then other suggestions here.
Been playing all day and the Sparkle Drive with just a touch of dirt is sounding real good into a Dual Showman Rev but not so good into a SS amp. As much as I am looking for one magic bullet, I suppose my choices for this spot on my pedalboard may need to be amp specific.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 23 May 2009 12:06 pm

The Twin Tube is the best into a clean SS amp, but it works great into a tube amp as well.

IMHO for the touch of hair you are talking about, the Twin Tube is the best of the lot. For overdrive into a my Showman, I slightly prefer my ZenDrive, but that's a different application.

Gordon Hartin · Post by **Gordon Hartin** » 23 May 2009 1:36 pm

I like the Zvex Box of Rock. http://www.zvex.com/boxofrock.html
It gives you 3 options, A clean boost, A distortion boost, or both together, but you need to be careful because it is a powerful pedal...$200 for the Vector Series

I also like the Electro Harmonix Holy Stain. It is almost a kitchen sink type of pedal with Reverb, Tremelo, and Pitchshifting. It also has 3 different distortion/fuzz settings. On normal guitar I find the distortions to be a bit cheesy, but they sound good on the steel for some reason...got one new for $100...

Gordon

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 23 May 2009 3:37 pm

Hi Jon,
I think I know the tone you're after. I have yet to try the twin tube pedal which sounds really cool, but I've been through a lot of boxes. After using a Rat, a Blues Driver, a Zen Drive, a Bosstone, an Ibanez SD9, a boutique Landgraff Bosstone variant, a Fulltone 69, and more I can't recall, what I've settled on for the time being are two pedals: an MXR Distortion + for distortion, and an old version of the DOD FET Preamp. The DOD FET Preamp does for me what you're looking for. When I bought it I was planning on using it for a clean boost, but it isn't clean like an MXR Micro Amp is clean, rather it has a really nice slightly hairy edge to it. It puts out a lot of gain to overdrive an amp, but even at unity gain or slightly over unity gain it has an edge similar to a moderately driven tube amp. I suppose that's the characteristic of FET transistors instead of chips. The only thing that is awkward about it that there is only one control: Volume. But at all levels it will add a slight amount of nice, natural sounding grit.
I find that the DOD FET Preamp in combination with the MXR Distortion + covers a fuller range than all of the single pedals I tried, and the tonal difference between the two pedals is cool as the DOD FET will drive an amp hard and give more breakup when it is cranked and the MXR Disrtion + can be backed off into typical OD pedal terrain, so the two pedal do overlap each other a bit while giving two flavors to choose from.
Good luck! Let us know what you find.

Marc Jenkins · Post by **Marc Jenkins** » 23 May 2009 6:18 pm

I really, really like the Barber LTD (special recipe version; has flatter midrange) for light hair. Haven't tried it through a SS amp though.

I did find that the TwinTube sounds great on channel 1, but I was not happy with the extra midrange and muddy lows of channel 2. I really wish this pedal came in a single channel version that wouldn't eat up half the pedalboard...

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 23 May 2009 6:41 pm

I never used channel 2 of the twin tube, for those reasons.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 23 May 2009 8:08 pm

I also tout the Seymour Duncan Twin Tube Overdrive as the best I've heard to date for an old-school overdrive/distortion pedal that cleans up nicely like a good old tube amp. I also restrict use pretty much to the "rhythm" channel, but the lead channel is OK if you're going for some over-the-top 70s classic rock distortion. But I don't really use that sound much at all. I've used this pedal with my Dual Showman Reverb/Twin Reverb, NV 112/400, and even to brown out my Pod 2.0 clean patches some. I think that sounds better than using the more highly distorted models on the Pod.

I also had a chance to use the regular (non-tube) Zen Drive about a year and a half ago on some recordings. It sounded good, but I prefer the SDTT. The more saturated sounds were very good, but it didn't clean up the way the SDTT did, and I compared them back to back.

I have never really liked distortion and overdrive pedals, not even as a rock guitar player. To me, they tend to sound buzzy and annoying. I'm definitely not a Tube Screamer kinda' guy - diode distortion generally doesn't work for me.

One thing that did work pretty well was Craig Anderton's MOSFET-based overdrive/distortion pedal kit. It was the one he called "tube-sound distortion", the distortion-generating device is the 4049 CMOS inverting hex inverter/buffer (I got them at Radio Shack, don't know if they still have them, but they're not hard to find). I breadboarded one of those back when he first published it (I think in Guitar Player, late 70s, early 80s, something like that), and made a pedal somewhat later.

There is a bunch of discussion on that circuit. This page - http://www.beavisaudio.com/bboard/projects/ - shows the circuit for Way Huge's Red Llama, which (according to this article) is very close to the original Anderton circuit, and the circuit diagram linked there gives the mods to take it back to original. One can very easily mod this circuit - I eventually added a clean preamp with a tone stack to help sharpen it up a bit. It's been at least 20 years since I dumped all my OD/DIST pedals into a box and put them away, so I can't remember the details, but it was fun and cheap to hack around with. There's a page devoted to old discussion and mods on this here - http://www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/F ... ndFuzz.txt

Kyle Everson · Post by **Kyle Everson** » 23 May 2009 10:02 pm

Try the Xotic Effects RC Booster. Unlike the AC Booster, you can dial the gain down low enough to get the tone you're describing. (I love the AC Booster, btw!)

Have you tried your Sparkle Drive with the gain nearly all the way down and the clean nearly all the way up? I bet with a tube amp that would get you close.

It really does depend on whether you're using tube or solid state. As good as solid state amps can sound for steel, to me they just don't have the dynamic response of tube amps when you throw overdrive pedals into the equation.

Good luck!

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 24 May 2009 4:47 am

I'm harvesting great info here. Couple of responses---yes, I've tried all possibilities on the Sparkle Drive and it can get it done with my tube amps but isn't happening with the SS amps. I may need to just accept that one box won't do it all.
Cliff--interesting. But it doesn't exist, as far as I can tell, even on ebay. Looks like a tough one to find.
Rolling my own isn't gonna happen. I actually still have the Anderton book. I tried my hand at a couple of FX 30 years ago. Very educational. Here's what I learned--Jon, you can't do this stuff.
The Seymour Duncan has two things against it---size and power requirements. Here's where I need to fit it--

And if I am going to need more than one box (I still expect to use one of the Keeleys for good R&R crunch) then I'm really limited.

I'm considering taking home a Way Huge Pork Loin (Dunlop) from Guitar Center for a test drive (15% off sale). Also giving some thought to an OCD---audio samples show wide range of gain.

Rick Batey · Post by **Rick Batey** » 24 May 2009 6:09 am

I'd suggest the Radial Tonebone Classic. It requires 15vDC, but the footprint is smaller than the Twin Tube. I find that with the three three-way mini-switches set top end = flat, mid boost = out, drive gain = low, it does exactly what you're describing. I love it. There was one for sale on the forum for just $110... not sure if it's still available.

Larry Weaver · Post by **Larry Weaver** » 24 May 2009 6:20 am

Jon, gotta say, that's one of the coolest pedalboard configurations I've ever seen. Nice work!!

+1 on the Barber LTD SR if you're looking for something that is more towards the medium to low gain end of the spectrum. It does a nice job of adding just a little hair and grit but when floored it can get pretty bluesy too. The flatter mid-range of the black SR really helps out with Pedal Steel.

For me, a most of the pedals (boutique and off the shelf) just don't do it for Pedal Steel unless they're modified a bit. I always seem to wind up changing out some of the parts in order to tame ice-pick highs, kill a mid hump, fatten the lows etc. These days, I mainly build my own stuff that's based on existing circuits, but modified for my needs.

Lately I've been doing a LOT of experimenting with exactly what you're talking about Jon. I recently built a pedal based on the old Proco Rat circuit, looking for something that would work with a variety of amps. I wanted something that I could take out as a grab and go and use with any back-line I'd be presented with. I tested it with a bunch of different amps I have: Holland Lil Jimi, Budda SD30, Fender Dual Showman Reverb, Crate Power Block, and a borrowed Peavey Classic Chorus 130. End result is that while it sounds best with the Budda (the pedal was tuned with that amp), I could be happy with it going out with the Crate, Fender or whatever I run across.

Keeley used to do a pretty nice mod on the Rat, but I don't think he's doing them anymore. If you're handy with a soldering iron, the mods are pretty easy to do and imho make a HUGE difference.

I'm actually thinking of putting a forum up on the web specifically for pedal and gear junkies that play Pedal Steel and Lap Steel. Getting more into depth and sharing info and experience about Pedal Steel and what effects work, mods, building etc.....I wonder if there'd be any interest in that......

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 24 May 2009 6:53 am

re:the Tonebone---yeah, I thought long and hard about that when I saw it in Buy & Sell but the special power needs mess up my plans.

Larry---thank you most kindly.

HERE are some more views. The outstanding thing is that it is pretty quiet with no undo hums and extra noise other than high gain stuff that's to be expected.
The only photo not shown is that it is a standard pedal board case with a lid. I'm still trying to devise some way to attach the pedals that is more secure and less long-term oozy and destructive than velcro.
And then ultimately I'd like to replace the legs with something equally collapsible and compact but less fragile.

I believe my plan is to try a G.C. Way Huge today and if it's not the one, I'm strongly leaning toward ordering the LTD from Pedalgeek. Subject to changing my plans with the next great suggestion to come my way here.

re: a pedalhead forum, I'd most certainly browse there. Wish I had some building chops.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 24 May 2009 6:55 am

Jon- you shoud solder up that BYOC delay. If its the old kit...its fantastic. Mine is still on my pedalboard despite owning a carbon copy and several other nice delays.

I use channel 2 on my twin tube alot, but I like/need high gain. If only the pedal were smaller i agree...

Jon that pork loin has knd of a large footprint too , not as big as the twin tube but bigger than an mxr or dod box. i havent tried it yet but if its anything like their other new offering it wil be veery versatile and require some time spent dialing n sounds. hard to do at GC.

I wont suggest anything, its too subjective and it really depends on guitar amp etc . But I found the twin tube too good to do without and resolved to just accept the large footprint and exra wall wart

Larry Behm · Post by **Larry Behm** » 24 May 2009 7:04 am

Jan that was terrific.

Put me down for the Twin Tube Classic. I agree with Dan and others I wish it came in a single, but, I just love this thing.

I started another post on this same subject a month or so ago and got all of the great feedback you can only get on the forum. I set out to try the TTC. Found a demo at GC for $150 vs $220, snatched it up in a heart beat.

Larry Behm

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 24 May 2009 8:42 am

First of all, I'm going over this thread and didn't want to miss some of the ideas--

--the Zvex....I used to have a Fuzz Factory (non-vexter) and concluded that somebody over there is mentally diminished. I mean that in a good way. Too crazy for me, I traded it for the pair of Keeleys. Not that this has any bearing on the BOR.

--I've always wanted o mess with Xotics. But all of them seem to have good stuff about them...RC, AC, BB, I've never been able to choose what to try and the wallet say 'no, you can't try them all'. Damned pushy wallet.

So I'm here with the Way Huge. It is just a bare fraction larger than the VoodooLab pedals----I thought it would be larger. This size will be fine for me.

First impressions---without tweaking the internal pots, at the lowest gain setting with clean mixed in (ala Sparkle Drive) it creates those false intermodulating harmonics on the Powerblock like my tube amps do when lightly overdriven. I've seen people complain about this sound---I dig it.
I think I like this pedal. It can get creamy but that's just gravy--I have other units for that. It has some color range. I'm going to play with the internals and see what else it can do. And I'm going to push it with a boost like clean Sparkle Drive in front and see what that does. But the most important thing for this quest is that it CAN get dialed down to the barest of grit. Not bad!
Now, if only I could turn on the TV and hear Gomer Pyle sing Back Home Again In Indiana this would be an awesome day. But get real--that would be asking too much.

Scott Swartz · Post by **Scott Swartz** » 24 May 2009 9:38 am

Larry Weaver, you have the right idea.

Many of the pedals listed in this thread use the same distortion topology, ie either diodes in a feedback loop or diodes to ground.

Most of the sound differences are in the impedance and tone shaping, which can be easily adjusted by changing resistor and cap values.

Obviously the commercial pedals are tuned using 6 string guitars, and steels are feeding them a very different signal.

I used a tube screamer type circuit on my pedal board for this type of thing, but with different component values in various parts of the circuit.

Plenty of kits out there to experiment with, for instance here

http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/ind ... &Itemid=26

John Lockney · Post by **John Lockney** » 24 May 2009 1:56 pm

Back to the reference tone you mentioned you were after, its the second recent mention of a bit of grit in the steel in "you aint going nowhere".

Where you think this came from, an amp turned-up too loud ? That sound is pretty hard to beat.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 24 May 2009 2:13 pm

Hey John---it was a few years ago that I bought the CD and revisited the recording after not having it for 30 years. I was so startled to hear the steel tone after spending so many hours listening to Lloyd with Charley Pride. The answer, as learned here on the forum, is that Lloyd recorded You Ain't Going Nowhere on a Deluxe Reverb rather than a Twin Reverb (as used at Panther Hall with Pride).
Having both amps, myself, it's no surprise that the Deluxe has an aggressive tone. You don't have to turn it up excessively loud to get that sort of harmonic bloom with a Deluxe Rev.
I'd love to know how Lloyd came to choose this amp for this session. I don't for a second doubt that his tone is exactly what he intended.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 24 May 2009 9:35 pm

Jon, since you've gone to such lengths with your trials and your board, you really gotta try the Seymour Duncan Twin Tube. I predict you will decide you can loose three or more of those pedals I see on your board and have plenty of room for it. I just plug it into my power strip along with my Hilton volume pedal and my amp. I wouldn't dream of passing up something with the tone I want simply because of the power connection. That seems to be putting the cart before the horse.

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Which Distortion/OD?

Which Distortion/OD?

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