C6...Will I ever learn?

Nathan Golub · Post by **Nathan Golub** » 20 May 2009 10:33 am

Buddy's Basic C6 has helped me to understand the back neck. It takes time, and I'm nowhere near proficient enough to say I can really play C6, but his course helps make things much clearer.

John McGlothlin · Post by **John McGlothlin** » 20 May 2009 10:53 am

Billy, I was the same way with the C6 tuning until I purchased the videos by Bobbe Seymour and he explained everything in a way to where anyone can fully understand and I would recommend Bobbe Seymour's videos on C6 playing to anyone who is interested in learning it.

Robert Tripp · Post by **Robert Tripp** » 20 May 2009 2:54 pm

Like most of us I grew up listening to non-pedal steel. So at 60 years of age I embarked on an adventure of trying to learn my way around on a lap steel, which I hope will give me enough basics so that when I cough up the money for a pedal model my wife will think its an okay investment.

I got a little Rogue, and was totally lost. I tried open E, I tried Dobro G and A, etc. Then I said well what the heck its all hard. Might as well start learning the C6 cuz that was what I think I heard on early recordings.

After some input from fellow forumites on some of the basics, I have found that it is for me the easiest to learn. Even though I haven't had time to refine the technique, I think the slants won't even be that hard to get a handle on.

Don't give up, just play it with no pedals for awhile then add light pedals once you have a grip on the general fretboard mapping. Mine is only a 6 stringer, so I can only imagine the confusion on a 10.

Billy Murdoch · Post by **Billy Murdoch** » 21 May 2009 5:07 am

Thanks Everyone for Your advice and encouragement.
I am now doing what I have been told.
That is...Leving the E9 neck for a while and am concentrating on the back neck.
Working without pedals.
I think(on reflection)that the pedals and levers were causing Me the biggest problem.
The couple of instruction courses I have, differ from one another in that the top string is G on one course and D on another and some of the pedals do not have the same pulls.Very confusing for My alcohol soaked (single)brain cell.
I can report that I have made a bit progress and have regained the drive needed.
Thanks again
Billy

John Polstra · Post by **John Polstra** » 21 May 2009 10:18 am

I'm really struggling with the C6 side of things, too. For some reason I find the instructional materials very confusing. I'm mostly trying to use "Basic C6" by Buddy Emmons. Everybody here raves about it so it must be OK, but it just ain't working for me. For example ...

It's called the C6 tuning, right? But the no-pedals chord chart shows only an Fmaj7/maj9 chord in the open position (strings 2 thru 9). Then when that position actually gets used in the first song tab, it's called a C chord again (strings 1 thru 8). Calling it an Fmaj7/maj9 chord is just confusing, because it's not actually used as any kind of F chord in real songs, as far as I can tell.

Another example: The text says, "You can think of pedal 6 as you would the (a) and (b) pedal on the E9th tuning. If you are in the key of C, pedal 6 will give you an F chord without moving your bar ..." Again, that just confuses me. On the E9 tuning, pressing the A and B pedals gives you the F chord on the same strings as your C chord. But on the C6 tuning, you have to use a completely different grip to go from the C chord to the F chord in the same position. And in fact, pedal 6 plays a pretty insignificant role in that change. All it does is give you the 7th (on string 6) and an extra root (string 2) that you already had on string 9 anyway.

I'm sure that when I put enough hours into it playing along with the book and CD, I'll get it eventually. But so far the logic of this tuning and its pedals is a mystery to me -- unlike E9, which I feel like I understand.

John

John Polstra · Post by **John Polstra** » 21 May 2009 11:24 am

Speaking of C6, I have a very basic question. When I'm using mostly pedals 5 and 6, should I put my foot over both pedals and tilt onto one or the other (like the A and B pedals in E9), or should I move my toe over just one pedal at a time?

John

Billy Murdoch · Post by **Billy Murdoch** » 21 May 2009 1:31 pm

John,
I am having good results from the Cindy Cashdollar DVD which can be bought from Homespun tapes.com.
She will have You playing recognisable songs and riffs in a very short time,no pedals and strings 1 to 8 only.I think it will be a good lead in and You can at a later date,begin to use pedals as the tuning becomes more familiar.
A little at a time.
Good luck
Billy

Billy Murdoch · Post by **Billy Murdoch** » 21 May 2009 1:34 pm

http://www.homespuntapes.com/shop/product.aspx?ID=786

Forgot to add the link.

Archie Nicol · Post by **Archie Nicol** » 21 May 2009 1:41 pm

With the uni' you've got both first string options. In B6th mode, the first string is F#(G) and the second string is C#(D). So you actually have an 11 string `back neck`.

Arch.

John McGlothlin · Post by **John McGlothlin** » 21 May 2009 2:04 pm

All who are interested in learning the C6 tuning, open this link and scroll down to the tab pages and I promise that you will find a lot of questions answered about the C6 tuning and Greg Cutshaw will have plenty of tabs here that will help you. It sure helped me learn a lot and it turned out to be so simple that I felt about 2 feet tall. http://www.gregcutshaw.com/

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 21 May 2009 3:00 pm

I have the Cindy Cashdollar tapes as well. Very good intro to western swing and C6 without pedals. When your through you will have a few songs under your belt ready for the bandstand and will have no trouble picking out the older non-pedal C6 country songs.

What has been working for me has been to think of c6 like I do my dobro, or like I would a bottleneck slide. Actually moving the bar from chord to chord versus using pedals to move from chord to chord. I skip the A string unless I want a minor or a 6th chord. So a song in the Key of C would use the open position(1chord and 6minor), fret 5(4chord and 2 minor), and fret 7(5chord and 3 minor). Of course there are a lot of other positions, but since 6 of the chords in a key can be found on those 3 positions without using pedals its a good place to start. The slants will fill in the gaps between those frets. I now use pedal 8 a lot alone and with pedal 7. I use the others in ignorance of what they are doing, just to get jazzy sounds out of it.

I also need to learn the pedals on my C6 neck, and have been having the same problems stated by others her with the instructional material.

I have found my weakness with the C6 pedals to be in my poor understanding of using augmented, diminshed, maj7 etc chords in a song period. I cant do it on 6 string guitar either. So for me reading about C6 pedals confuses me because I dont understand the use of many of the chords they create.

Somewhere in the past someone (Bob Hoffnar maybe?) did a post about using the pedals to get minors. I cant find it unfortunately, but if someone can its pretty enlightening.

Paddy Long · Post by **Paddy Long** » 21 May 2009 8:08 pm

Billy - put the 'D' on string 1

Pad

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 21 May 2009 8:32 pm

John Polstra wrote:Speaking of C6, I have a very basic question. When I'm using mostly pedals 5 and 6, should I put my foot over both pedals and tilt onto one or the other (like the A and B pedals in E9), or should I move my toe over just one pedal at a time?

John

John, I would recommend having your foot poised over both pedals 5&6, just as you do with A&B on the E9th neck, and tilting your foot to get just pedal 5 or just pedal 6. Just like you do on the E9th. No different.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 21 May 2009 8:50 pm

John Polstra wrote:It's called the C6 tuning, right? But the no-pedals chord chart shows only an Fmaj7/maj9 chord in the open position (strings 2 thru 9). Then when that position actually gets used in the first song tab, it's called a C chord again (strings 1 thru 8). Calling it an Fmaj7/maj9 chord is just confusing, because it's not actually used as any kind of F chord in real songs, as far as I can tell.

Actually, it is. The 9-6-4 grip is often used for major 7th chords.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 21 May 2009 8:51 pm

John-Again, I will have to agree with Jim Cohen on the foot over pedals 5 and 6, and slant your foot just like E9th A and B pedals. A ton of stuff can be played with those 2 pedals and One knee lever lowering the 3rd string C to B.Good luck, I like C6...al.

Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 22 May 2009 8:59 am

I have been playing C6 non pedal for some time now. When I bought my pedal guitar, I also bought Jeff Newman's C6 workshop and C6 and swingin' vols 1 and 2. In addition to getting me acquainted with the pedals it is also showing me the concept of pockets for single string play. Since I don't know C6 pedals, I wouldn't know how comprehensive it actually is. But by the time I'm finished with these 3 volumes, I'll be playing C6 pedals.

Jim Robbins · Post by **Jim Robbins** » 22 May 2009 5:10 pm

Here's a warm-up that I found useful to get oriented on C6, based on learning 'boxes' of root-fifth patterns. It's not the most exciting thing to do but it sure helped opening up the neck for me. It's probably good if you're a six string player and used to thinking off "E" and "A" bar chord positions -- it's the same type of approach. At any rate, it is helpful to understand the logic of the tuning.

Step 0: Forget about the bottom two strings. Just focus on strings 1-8.

Step 1: First, you learn where your roots and fifths are in open position. So for a D chord, you start at the open position D at the 2nd fret. You are looking for the notes D and A, which are on the open C and G strings. Then, you go up 3 frets (5th fret) and move them one string down (to the open A and E strings). That gives you the same notes. Go back and forth between those two positions, playing D's and A's at frets 2 and 5.

Step 2: Then, find where D and A are as close as possible to the 9th fret (which is the A chord in open position), and do the same thing 3 frets up (12th fret) and one string down. Go back and forth between those two patterns, playing D's and A's.

You've now got the octave covered & know where all the roots and 5ths are based on 2 pairs of patterns, each three frets apart. Play those patterns in a couple of different keys as picking warm ups -- good for cross picking or working on wide grips -- so you get to learn them. Play them starting from the bottom, top, middle, maybe 5 - 10 minutes, then do something fun.

When you have them down, you can then start filling in thirds to get chords and put that into your warm up routine, or bits of scales that land on the root or fifth, & use that in the warm up routine.

When you learn pockets (like: http://www.buddyemmons.com/Pockets.htm) you can see how they lie with the pattern of roots and fifths and if you get into trouble with complicated pocket patterns, you can get back to familiar ground as long as you know those simple root fifth patterns.

I wouldn't suggest doing nothing but playing roots and fifths -- after all, this isn't the "who plays bass" thread -- but using this as a warm up and then going on to other more interesting things really helped me in getting comfortable on C6.

I also agree with everyone who said do most of your practice without pedals (then toss one or two in as a treat). I tried starting with pedals & while it wasn't a complete waste of time it wasn't the quickest way to learn, even for a theory guy like me.

& I also agree you should spend all your time on C6 for a while. Practicing exclusively on C6 for a while helped my E9 playing & it is surprisingly easy to slip back into E9 when you've practiced nothing but C6.

Sorry for the long post, but the more C6 that's out there, the better!

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 23 May 2009 6:17 am

John P : when you write : " Calling it an Fmaj7/maj9 chord is just confusing "
it's just like Brint states John
it is a F maj7 chord
which means that the C6 tuning is 2 chords in one : C6 root on 10 & F maj7 root on 9
E is the maj7 tone in F & the 3rd tone in C
move up to fret 7, no pedals, root on string 9 : whaddaya have ?
C maj7
now add pedal 6 to that & you've got a Cdom7 & 9th chord
you also get a G6 to G minor on fret 7, when you go from no pedals to pedal 6 (root string 10)
that's not insignificant John it's real handy !
the grips undoubtedly vary
pedal 6 is similar to pedal B on E9 because of the 2nd string half tone raise
& pedal 7 is similar to pedal A on E9 because of the whole tone raise on string 3 : you must avoid string 4 because it too, raises a whole tone, & can bugger things up

here's a basic C6 chord chart from Trap Truly that might help along :

http://dogriverpub.com/trap/chords.pdf

John Polstra · Post by **John Polstra** » 23 May 2009 9:27 am

Thanks, everybody, for the incredibly helpful tips and pointers. I'm going to get those Cindy Cashdollar DVDs and start over with a more methodical approach. The advice to forget E9 (not try to play it the same way) and to start out with no pedals is right on the money for me. I had this notion that C6 would be just like E9 but with slightly different pedals, but I'm starting to "get" it now. Steve N., Jim R., and CrowBear, your detailed posts alone will keep me busy for weeks if not months.

About the foot position for pedals 5 & 6: It's kind of awkward for me to tilt my foot on those pedals, but hopefully I can adjust my pedal heights to make it easier. My guitar is a 12-string universal, so I have to lower my Es by holding LKR at all times. That puts my left leg in a pretty contorted position for the pedals to the right. I know some people like to lower their Es with the right knee for that reason, but I still think LKR will be a good place for it once I get things adjusted right. I do have a lock for that lever (it's a Sierra) that I could install if nothing else works.

Thanks again. This is the most helpful group in the world!

John

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 23 May 2009 10:40 am

CrowBear-You hit it right in your post above. A very good explanation of the tuning.
I and Many pop, jazz players work off the Fmaj7(the sub-Dominant) as much or more than the C6(Tonic). Good post...al.

Archie Nicol · Post by **Archie Nicol** » 23 May 2009 2:05 pm

"bugger things up".

nicely put, CB.

Arch..

admin · Post by **b0b** » 23 May 2009 3:04 pm

I started out by thinking of it this way:

Ignore strings 1 and 10
The I root (C6) is on the 7th string
The IV root (Fmaj7) is on the 9th string
Pedal 5 makes a II (D9) chord.
Pedal 6 makes a IV (F9) chord.
Pedal 5+6 makes a diminished chord
the knee lever makes almost any chord prettier

John Polstra · Post by **John Polstra** » 23 May 2009 3:12 pm

Thanks, B0b -- simple rules like that help. What does the "prettier" knee lever do, specifically? I haven't quite figured out what the standard knee lever(s) is/are for C6. It's extra hard to figure out since I've got a uni.

John

admin · Post by **b0b** » 23 May 2009 4:11 pm

The first knee lever on C6th lowers the 3rd string C to B. On many guitars, this is the only knee lever on the C6th neck. It's usually RKL or RKR, using the same crossrod as some E9th changes.

That's the lever I was talking about.

John Polstra · Post by **John Polstra** » 23 May 2009 4:56 pm

b0b wrote:The first knee lever on C6th lowers the 3rd string C to B. On many guitars, this is the only knee lever on the C6th neck. It's usually RKL or RKR, using the same crossrod as some E9th changes.

That's the lever I was talking about.

Good! My Sierra has that as RKL.

John