Thinking about buying a new guitar

[Mike Perlowin]

Dos anybody remember Al Petty's guitar with 21 pedals?

[Chris LeDrew]

So it all seems to come down to this:

Either the builder says he can do it or can't do it. Otherwise, he should just keep his opinions to himself. The questioning of the customer by the builder seems more the issue here than anything else. It's up to the builder to take the order on or not; however, he should not place judgement on the players request. Seems reasonable to me.

[Bo Legg]

We have the Crawford Cluster.
Who's to say Tim, that you should not dare to dream of the Pillow Cluster.
With all sincerity I think the divide here on this topic is the fact that one man's Cluster is another man's Cluster *#$%!.

[Tim Pillow]

These changes are or were on records, why would I not add them on a 10th lever?.. The information that is learned from using these changes, set an example for other ideas, theory of whatever else one can think of and has proven to be invaluable.
I feel compelled to let everyone know where I stand and I will tell it like I see it whether anyone likes it or not. It is apparent to me that there quite a few individuals on here that have no problem making uneducated statements about my ability to play, my ability to understand music theory or my ability to think or whatever else. So here are my comments for everyone to see. Fire away and let the games begin!..

Bob Hoffnar said:
It seems like a reasonable question to me. If you can't answer with simple, direct concrete reasons for having a 9 lever steel then you probably do not need them. The builder could be trying to save you some money and save himself some hassle.

Reply:
How do you know what I need Bob?..Quite frankly, if I need some direction about what I need I would drop an email, or make phone calls to the people I know that are the most qualified to answer my problems.

Ray Montee said:
"Could it be that the BUILDERS know more about the issue than do you!?"

Reply:
If a builder has an issue putting more than 9 knee levers and or pedals on their guitar of which builders most want a premium price for their guitars and if their design on their guitars are weak, why would I want one??.. I can guarantee if you were in my shoes you would feel the same way, unless you own or like to buy subpar instruments that fall short of their competitors??... Not me!..

John Johansen:
I know a lot of steelers that are really trying to load a steelguitar as full as possible, just in case there is need for it once in a lifetime. There is nothing wrong with it, it's a hobby. See it like someone is buying a Lamborgini to travel trough Paris


Amen brother!, Thanks for the support. But it’s not about just loading a guitar up for me. I know how I will use this changes, and if don’t have any idea, you can bet, I will figure it out.


Bill Duncan:
Amen Brother you said it perfect! Thanks for the kind words!

Kevin Hatton said:
“Because you don’t need them it’s called moving the bar”
Reply:
WOW!..Looks like you need to go back and take more lessons. Find another teacher!. I’m not even going to take the time to explain this comment!

Donny Hinson said: I dunno, you'd have to ask them, but I do think that builders will go out of their way for a "special" player. I do know that if I were the builder, I'd only build such a guitar if I thought the buyer could handle it, if I knew that he was very accomplished and really needed all those pedals. Building an "overdressed general" for some hacker who can't play very well (but has a fistfull of cash) might well wind up being more trouble than it's worth.

Reply: Mr Hinson, just because you have the same last name of a well known Nashville player who has actually been on records, doesn’t make you an authority, trust me!...
As far as I’m concerned I am a very special player, because I’m a paying customer!!.. So Mr Hinson if I played for you, and if you thought I was good worthy would you be so kind as to let me have my extra knee lever??... Dude you are ridiculous!!. You have no idea what you are talking about!... You are obviously not a player so you wouldn’t know! Find a competent teacher and take some lessons.

Jerry Overstreet said:
“If a builder wants your business, he'll endeavor to give you what you want without question. More pedals and levers is more money for him. If I got this question from a builder, it would make me uncomfortable and I'd be concerned about the finished product performing as I wanted. I'd look elsewhere.”

Reply: You are a smart man Mr. Overstreet!.. I agree! Thanks for your wisdom….

Tracy Sheehan said “What a knee lever will do can be done with another in a different fret and position.”

Reply: Tracy is called inversions!.. Thanks for your input!
Tracy Sheehan said: “In other words put 20 knee levers under it and try to do what Chalker and others did with only floor pedals on a fender steel years ago.
I am being a lttle factious here,but true,IMO.

Reply: Tracy I don’t play like Curly Chaulker nor do I care to. My influences are Paul Franklin mostly. Thanks for your input!.

Joe Smith said: Tim, I personally think it's great that you are thinking outside the box, so to speak. I say go for it. I'm sure that you can find a builder that will build you a guitar just the way you want it.

Reply: Thanks for your support!.

Shorty Smith:
“If it take 9 pedals for you to play, you need to go back to the learning stage”

Reply: I bet you wouldn’t talk like that to Paul Franklin or Buddy Emmons!. That is what I thought!...Good day!...

[Tim Pillow]

Donny Hinson Said:
To us, it's just a guitar. But to the builder, it's his living and reputation. He has to stand behind and service the guitar, and it may wind up to be a lot of hassle down the road. The profit on that one guitar, regardless of how fancy or complicated it may be, will be gone very quickly. I don't really understand what I'm reading, it's almost like indignation that the builder won't let you tell him how to run his business. And after all, it is his business! He has the right to refuse to do anything that he doesn't see a good reason for. And you have the right to take your business elsewhere.

Sounds like a pretty fair arrangement to me!

Well Donny when you let go of your 5,000.00 plus I take it's just pocket change for you? Well well, why don't you just hand over 6 grand via paypal and I will be glad to buy the guitar you think I should have. For your information, I'm not asking a builder to do something that his guitar isn't equipped to do. If the builder's guitar is only made to handle X amount of pedals and or levers, the builder needs to state that not question me of why I need so many!.
Sorry builders but not everyone that calls you up and asks you a bunch of rethorical questions are a steel guitar hack, contrary to what the general opinion is. I don't know where you get off saying that I'm trying to change a builders mind about anything. But what I do know, is that if that paticular guitar doesn't suit my wants and/or needs, they aren't getting my money unless you are buying.

[Roual Ranes]

Some guys dont "need" pedals at all. So why have them??????????

[Joe Naylor]

Tim - We need to have one of your L-o-n-g conversations about this.

I am not a builder, as you know, and there is only about one in this group that has done much toward building a pedal steel.

The real reason that builders do not want to do this(in my opinion) is that it is a real pain in the (fill in the part of the body you want) - as you know I helped out building some steels and one in particular that I helped with was a real pain simply because you run out of room to put rods. The rods are truly custom bent to go around other things that are already there. Those bent rods pull differently than the straight ones. I have talked to several builders and they all say the same things. When you get so many rods in there the customer is usually not happy with certain changes be cause they pull different than other changes. Two builders that I know of in particular will only put so many pedals and knee levers for that reason. It goes back to bad experiences on the builders side.

That is all it boiles down to too much work going in and unhappy customers going out so it is a loose loose not a win win.

Call me and we can talk more.

[Lee Baucum]

I'm still curious to know how the builder (or builders) phrased the question. I'm not taking sides in this, I just know that some really fine craftsmen can be a little bit lacking in the "tact" department.

[Donny Hinson]

He was asking why some builders wouldn't do it. I know why- it's a pain to make them work well and they might not make out financially as it takes an inordinate amount of time to accomplish building a playable guitar with what some consider an excessive amount of pedals and levers.

Well I'm sure glad you finally got that across! (Though I do believe a few said more or less the same thing.) Re: My "hacker comment", I was just trying to say that unknown players (players that aren't famous, or working "high profile" gigs for big stars) are probably less likely to get something out of the ordinary from builders than someone like Paul, Buddy, Tommy, Lloyd, or Sonny. There's a "pecking order" in this business, just like any other. (You may not believe that, but I assure you, it's true.)

[Tim Pillow]

Well, this will be the last time I will ever ask a question on this forum. It is very appearant to me that there are quite a few people on this forum who get off putting people down, making rude comments or just flat out will not accept change or something that is different. The world will turn and the steel guitar will only continue to advance whether you all like it or not. Deal with it!...
Now I understand why there are a number of people, some of them are well known, will not bother to post on this forum due to the very few people that like to ruin it for others. Theresa Gailbrath never asked me to post anything in her behalf but I will make a point here. Sh always seems to catch grief on this forum ust because she likes the country and the new artists. There is nothing wrong with that. These artists are some peoples lively hood that are in the music business. If you don't like what she has to say on here, keep your negative comments to yourself. To all of you that posted your negative stuff trying to make me look stupid, or whatever, well maybe this is why you sit in the audience at steel guitar shows. If you put in as much time woodshedding, opening up your minds and your ears as you spend trolling on this forum, making rude condesending comments to anyone that doesn't fit in your little box, maybe you can actually get some respect from the real musicians on this site.

[Kevin Mincke]

To each his own....What ever trips your trigger.....and I could continue BUT Bill Rudolph at Williams will build whatever you WANT on your NEW order guitar along with several other manufacturers
There's some great music to be had on a 3X4 as we all know

[Chris LeDrew]

Tim, some comments seem more harsh than they really are, I think. I know mine was completely tongue-in-cheek. When I joined forum a few years back, I had to turn down my sensitivity radar when it came to some forum members. It takes all kinds to make the world go 'round. There are folks who will be detractors no matter what the thread. But I do hope you get what you're looking for. It seems the Excel company has made some interesting steels, with intricate pulls and stuff. It might be worth checking out.

[Robbie Crabtree]

4 is all I can deal with. I would not know what to do with 10.

[Bob Hoffnar]

Tim,
First off let me apologise for my post and maybe explain my perspective and intention. I certainly did not mean to judge you or make any assumptions about your playing or needs. I teach quite a bit and find that it is very common that players want all sorts of changes on there guitars that do not serve there musical needs. Levers are often added before the player has a basic understanding of the tuning. This can actually harm a players progress with the instrument. For instance if you just push a pedal to make a minor chord in an open position you may be skipping over how the intervals blend and morph into diatonic patterns all over the neck forming minor chords everywhere already. Or you may not need a designated lever to lower your 6th string a half step if you already have a 6th string whole step lower that splits with your B pedal. That's what I'm talking about when I said that you should be able to explain why you want whatever changes you want. You should absolutely have your steel made however you see fit. I have some very different changes on my C6 neck in particular that work for me but not for other steel players. When builders asked me why I wanted my C6 tuned like that and why I wanted those levers on it I just told them I want to approach the tuning from an open pentatonic scale perspective rather than a 6 chord perspective. It was never an issue. Some forum guys got there panties in a wad but who cares about that.
Again I am sorry if I seemed arrogant to you. It was not my intention.

Take care, Bob

[Jerry Overstreet]

I understand your feelings Tim, but I hope you'll continue to input ideas. I believe you have more empathy here than you might think.

Anyhow, there are no forum police here other than b0b and the moderators and all contributions, within the rules, are welcome as far as I know.

[Billy Carr]

Get what you want in a guitar. You can always remove or change something after you get it. You'll have to PERSONALIZE(make it play like you want) it anyway. Go for it!

[Don Drummer]

Tim, I can understand how you feel. I had a similar encounter with a steel guitar mechanic from this side of the country; East of Lewisburg, West of D.C. The matter involved something very common and simple; a 9th string lower. Always wondered why he felt compelled to talk me out of it. Don D.

[Donny Hinson]

It is very appearant to me that there are quite a few people on this forum who get off putting people down

Hmm. Is that so? You mean like this...

I feel compelled to let everyone know where I stand and I will tell it like I see it whether anyone likes it or not.

...WOW!..Looks like you need to go back and take more lessons. Find another teacher!. I’m not even going to take the time to explain this comment!

...Dude you are ridiculous!!. You have no idea what you are talking about!... You are obviously not a player so you wouldn’t know! Find a competent teacher and take some lessons.

[Robby Springfield]

Wisdom does not come by being closed minded. Sure, we all admire those that learn to play on 3 pedals and one lever like I did. Just because granpa rode a donkey to town doesn't mean I can't drive my nice air conditioned pickup truck.

Tim, you should talk to Mike at Mullen. They did everything I ask of them in building my new 9 pedal 10 knees guitar. It is absolutely a wonderful guitar and having the extra's just opens up more ways to skin the cat.

[Drew Howard]

Just because granpa rode a donkey to town doesn't mean I can't drive my nice air conditioned pickup truck.

[David Wright]

Interesting Thread..
I know as a Rep for a Builder, We try to give the customer all he wants, in building a guitar that is really loaded up theres always some concerns, but can be done.
As a young boy, my Dad built steels for guys that wanted 20 pedals on the floor, or 13 , didn't matter, He did it, and was the first to do so.. So I say Tim, get what you want, and I know there is a many Damm Good builders out there that can do it!!
Good luck , and don't stop asking questions!!!! if you don't ask, we never learn!!

[Mike Perlowin]

I know as a Rep for a Builder, We try to give the customer all he wants,

This is true. When I ordered my Millennium, I asked for a wrist lever, which Johnny had never made before. He had to figure out how to do it. (I sent him one of my older guitars so he cold study it.)

I have the first, possibly the only, Millennium made with this type of lever.

Prior to ordering the Milly, I spoke to somebody at another company who told me they couldn't make one. I had considered buying one of that company's guitars, but decided against it specifically because they won't make one with the wrist lever. With MSA there was never any question that they would accommodate my needs. The only question was "How are we going to do it?"

BTW when I ordered the guitar from David (Hi David) in January (I forget whether it was 2006 or '07) , I was told it would be ready by mid June. The guitar arrived at my home June 22.