Tuning Issue

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

This is a statement and not a question but feel free to comment.
I Played a gig with my steel teacher the other day.
He tunes almost strait up,.. Es with Pedals down and chimes the Bs.
I tune PSG with a Peterson. I know, I know, I already been told. So any way.
I was playing 6 string electric, and some local steelers were sitting in, all was fine and dandy.
This real hot steel player who tours nationally and just smokes it, sits in.
The first thing he does is tunes it up to ear and he has a very good ear.
He is burning super solos and is unquestionably in tune but now I sound out at 440.
I shake and shimmy the guitar, stay off the bad stuff and let him do his thing just back up with minimal tic tac.
But it was the first time I had been on the other end of that deal. He was a great player and fun to play with.
It reminded me of my teacher telling me and John Fabian telling me to learn to play mostly strait up and things go smoother.
Some times when it sounds like the guitars are out of tune, and they may be... I will try to keep a open mind.
I guess its all about making the Band/Song sound good.
I still have difficulty playing strait up style tuning,
It sounds off to me and makes me nervous and uncomfortable.
This is just my experience and observation as a semi new guy and not meant to spark a debate. Evil Twisted

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John Allison · From: Austin, Texas, USA

Ken, I've just recently acquired anything to tune and I've been wondering what I'd do about it.
So far I've just played my PSG in my living room and at one "gig" with my usual playing partners. Since I don't know a dang thing about tuning a pedal steel, I've treated it like everything else I've ever played... start with a basic pitch keep tweaking until everything sounds about right. Since I have to tune most strings 3 ways, everybody else tunes to me.
Don't know if I'll ever have to worry about playing with higher caliber players, but sooner or later I might have to actually figure out the whole tuning thing...
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Allison Stringed Instruments
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Bill Ford · From: Graniteville SC Aiken

Another statement, what would it sound like if you tuned every string to a piano/keyboard, note for note? Pianos are tempered. I've read/heard that if you play with an orchestra, strings, etc you need to tune straight up, not that I ever plan on doing that.

Bill
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Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

I think an orchestra tunes for each key and I also believe strings tune differently than brass.
It seems like tuning strait up makes the chords pitchy on PSG.
Other than that I would strongly disagree and be willing to argue to end of the world. Mr. Green

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MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes

Greg Gefell · From: Upstate NY

I've always had great luck tuning everything but the G#'s and the D# straight up. I flatten those strings just a hair.
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Jack Dougherty · From: Spring Hill, Florida, USA

You may need two guitars to fix this problem. One at home where you can tune the beats out and one tuned to straight up to take to the gigs to give that warm and fuzzy to the rest of the band members. Straight up tuning can and does sound dissonant. But with other instrumentation sounds right on. It is a conscience decision one has to make. The Peterson tuner has a 440 0 setting.
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Jeff Hyman · From: West Virginia, USA

For a starting point, after the real good PSG player tuned.. I would have sync'ed up the E strings and tuned from there. If your open E cord and his open E cord were out, then you'd be in a bad spot.

David Doggett · Posted 5 May 2009 5:13 pm

Just to be clear on what orchestras do, horns tune straight up 440 to a single note. The valves and keys of their instruments are designed to play an equal temper (ET) scale; but the player intonates every note with his lips by ear. So they mostly play beatless Just Intonation (JI), especially when harmonizing sustained notes. Strings are tuned in 5ths (basses are tuned in 4ths). So they don't have to deal with any fixed pitch strings tuned to 3rds like we do on steel. But like the horns, although the fixed strings are tuned straight up 440, they intonate most notes with their fingers by ear. So most of the instruments of an orchestra harmonize by ear to beatless JI.

The few percussion instruments that tune the whole scale ET, such as harps and glockenspiels, have very little sustain, and so there is not much clash with the orchestra's JI harmonizing. Likewise, in the old days, the harpsichord was so quiet, and had so little sustain, it was mostly a rhythm instrument. When pianos were invented, they were much louder, and had more sustain. There was a problem. Basically they were banished from the orchestra except for the occasional piano concerto. Then the orchestra plays in the background and tries to play by ear to the piano. It is well understood as an uncomfortable compromise. They usually do it well enough that the listener doesn't hear a problem. But conductors and composers are well aware of the problem.

When top steelers such as Lloyd Green and Paul Franklin tune JI by ear and play with keyboards and ET tuned guitars, their pro ears instinctively center their chords and harmonies to minimize the problem. The vast majority of recordings you have heard your whole life were done that way. Some players find it easier to do this if they tune their thirds somewhere in the middle between JI and ET - sometimes called "tampered" thirds. Only a very few top pros tune everything pure straight up ET all the time. I have been told that many producers and engineers will not allow that.

I don't mean to tell anyone what is the best way for them to tune. We each have to experiment and figure it out for ourselves. By all means try both ways and in between. But the idea that you must tune straight up ET to play with keyboards and ET tuned guitars is simply wrong, and there are thousands of great recordings to prove that.

What I've noticed is that whoever plays loudest sounds in tune. If there is a clash between steel and guitar or keyboard, when the steel takes a lead, it sounds in tune. The others may sound a little out of tune, but they are in the background. When an ET instrument takes a lead, the steel in the background may sound a little off, but it's in the background. If that bothers you, try tuning the thirds somewhere in between. As a last resort, try tuning everything straight up, strings, pedals and levers. You may sound better in the background, but you may not like the way your leads sound.

In recording on separate tracks, it is best to have the ear instruments such as steel and fiddle do their tracks last, so they can hear the whole mix and match it. If the ear instruments do their parts early, there is no way they can match the ET instrument leads tracked later. That's asking for trouble.

Stuart Legg · Posted 6 May 2009 10:59 am

If you tune strait up and it sounds dissonant to you then It's also going to sound dissonant to the rest of the band.
I was under the imprression that the only reason to tune strat up was to make your Crawford Cluster or other additional pedals and levers (more than the basic E9) easier to tune and sound more in tune.
If you just have the basic E9 setup there is no need to tune strait up.
I your standard guitar is tuned 440 and a PSG player tunes by ear and your not in tune with each other, I would have to conclude that the PSG was out or the player was not playing on pitch.

Benton Allen · From: Muscle Shoals, Alabama, USA

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

I been told that playing more towards strait up is better for live performance in most instances. BUT!!
I like to tune with petersons/neumanns offsets because when I was in my first couple years it allowed me to just tune up and play/Practice, I believe I advanced at a more rapid pace because of it and gradually learned the ins and outs of how 3rds 5ths 7ths Etc are tuned. Besides... There is no absolute tuning that fits all people, all PSGs, in all circumstances. It is something that you have to learn and develop to you own satisfaction.
I believe old timers forget how confusing this is at first.
My opening thread was about how I was playing a Tele in tune and was forced out of tune by a louder more dominate player.
and at that point the correct action for me to take was to back off and let him roll, as he did for me when I was soloing. David Doggett explained it very well.
It was kind of a eye opener that I wanted to pass along.
and I like my Peterson tuner so there.....
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes

Benton Allen · From: Muscle Shoals, Alabama, USA

Got it!
Thanks. I thought I had missed the entire point of your post. Thanks for the clarification!
Cheers!
Benton

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Changing how you tune to suit whatever circumstance seems like chasing your tail to me. If you get your ears together you won't need to worry about that stuff anymore.

I get students asking about tuning and I have them play a major scale on one string with no pedals in tune. If they can't do that then they need to work on it. Once they can play a single string scale really in tune most all the complications on how to tune go away.
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Bob

Ray McCarthy · From: New Hampshire, USA

Please forgive this stupid question from an amature--but what is meant by "straight up" tuning.
I tune the 4th string to E using a pitch pipe--I know, I gotta get into the 21st century--then tune the rest of the thing by ear. Sounds good to me (and the folks I play with).

Derby SD-10, NV-112, TruTone, Goodrich.

Ulric Utsi-Åhlin · From: Sweden

Ray,there´s nothing stupid about what You said...the
great players of the 40´s & 50´s didn´t have termi-
nology for these things,yet they played in tune...
the top players put little time into worrying and
more into correct bar placement,including slants,
skipping trouble spots + some peculiarities all their
own.McUtsi

Doug Palmer · From: Greensboro, North Carolina, USA

I've always temper tuned. Some strings as much as 26 cents flat! It sounds great and no complaints. It does however prohibit me from playing some open notes. I've seen many players get in a funk trying to get it perfect. You won't! Get it close and play. That's why you have vibrato.

I agree with David. I play Sax also and if I looked at my pitch control on my peterson tuner I'd quit. Again...vibrato!

Doug
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