off chord

[Calvin Walley]

i was just cleaning out some of my old music papers ( they do tend to accumulate) and i ran across a paper that says "chords for different keys " it gives the usual A D E then it gives an off chord in this case B and it goes on to list A thru G this way always giving an off chord
i can't remember seeing anything like this before

anyone know about these?

[David Doggett]

In the key of A, the B chord is just the II chord. It is often used in a bridge or turnaround, almost always followed by the V chord. Another chord often given besides I, IV and V is vi, the relative minor.

[Calvin Walley]

thanks Dave

i think its just the term " off chord " that has me scratching my head

[Jim Robbins]

I've heard the term "off chord" used in country bands to describe any chord other than I, IV or V (e.g. other than C, F & G in the key of C). So whoever knows the song would just tell the other players what the "off chords" in the song were on the assumption that they'll be able to figure out the I, IV & V by themselves, or would say "it's got a couple of off chords in it" to let the other players know to watch out for something that they might not expect otherwise.

[James Morehead]

I'm outta here, ya'll talking too much theory for me, I just wanna play.

[Michael Johnstone]

Any musicians I've ever wanted to play with have enough ears that there are no "off chords". In my experience,if you gotta describe things in terms like "off chords" they're probably not gonna catch 'em anyhow - and I've done plenty of gigs like that.

[Sonny Jenkins]

Like someone said,,in country bands "off chords" can reference any chord outside the usual 1-4-5,,,however,,it most commonly refers to the 2 chord,,either as a minor or 7th.

[Calvin Walley]

this is the chart


just so you will know what i am talking about

[Bobby Burns]

I think Jim Robbins had this right. As far as the theory goes, I have known some very schooled musicians who never played anything interesting. I have also known a few very accomplished country and blues players who would have a hard time telling you the chords that they were playing. I know a very successful country singer and song writer who tells his band a song in "A" is in G up two, refering to the capo position. I also remember when asked about a certain chord position, in a magazine article, James Taylor said, "I just moved a finger untill it sounded right. I'll leave to you guys to decide what to name it." So, I'd be careful of the limitations I placed on "any musicians I've ever wanted to play with".

[Bobby Burns]

Don't get me wrong. I have the utmost respect for those who know theory inside and out, and can speak the language. I've spent a great deal of time studying it myself, but I also have a great deal of respect for anyone who learns to make great musical sounds, no matter how illiterate they may or may not be. When I buy a CD I want to hear the music they play. I don't want them to describe it to me verbally.

[James Morehead]

Simple "C" scale Calvin:
remember from school days, when life was real easy?
do--re--me--fa--so--la--ti--do= 8 tones
C---D---E---F---G---A---B---C(octave) = 8 tones
(1)--2---3--(4)-(5)--6---7---8

Now you can look at this scale as notes or chords.

Now this will show you your 1st tone in the scale to be C, which if you to think "chords", play a C chord. This is your "one chord". Now look at your scale above, your F chord is your 4 chord, and is the 4th tone in the scale. And what's next, the 5th tone which is your five chord G. This forms a pretty consistant pattern

Calvin, if you can play this scale using chords on your pedal steel and become familiar with where they lay on the neck, then you can find it all, even if you got to go back to the C position and re-calibrate yourself. Once you know your C,F and G, you can find the other keys.

Let's say you want the key of D. Find C and move up two frets to D and play the pattern again, and you will see the 4th and 5th chord.

So, new example, back in the key of C, and you need to find the 3 minor chord for instance (look at the scale above), count 3 tones up from C(1) which is the one chord, and you will find E is the 3rd tone, and your 3 minor chord.

So test time--what's your 2 chord in the key of C (It's in the scale)?

Now this is about the most dirt simple bit of theory that will get you by. And this is a simple way to look at the Nashville Numbersystem, too.

Obviously, you can go much much further into theory, but not just now, at least until we absorb this.

[Robert Cates]

An "off chord" is a chord that has gone somewhere. It is off somewhere doing something else at the time that you need it. You have to go search for it and put it back "on" again. Of course by that time the band has moved on and you don't need it anymore. So the best advice is to keep all your chords handy and don't let them run "OFF"
Just thought you would like to know

James ..you have the patience of a saint. you explained that very well
Bob

[Calvin Walley]

yes James

i do know the 1 4 5 and yes i did see that the off chord on the chart was a 2 what i didn't get was why the term "off chord "

and please correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the 2 a minor ?

[James Morehead]

It's what I call dirt road country-boy music theory. Next week we will advance to demented chords and argumentive chords, and how they git related.

[Robert Harper]

Ubfortunately, this is where I find myself more than I like "OFF CHORD" In my case it is in upper case letters,

[James Morehead]

Calvin, it's useful info for many beginners, kinda like your other thread was discussing.

The 2 chord can be a minor or a major. If the band leader will fire you for playing minors, I'd play it major.

But seriously, depends on what the song is, such as a 1,2,5 song or a 1,2,4,5 song for example. Western swing and jazz will knock down the boundries on alot of tunes. Might I add, that's when it gets real interesting and a ton of extra fun.

[Jody Sanders]

Years ago any chord we were not familiar with was an "off chord". The 2 chord we called the "square chord". Jody.

[Robert Harper]

[quote="James Morehead"]Simple "C" scale Calvin:
remember from school days, when life was real easy?
do--re--me--fa--so--la--ti--do= 8 tones
C---D---E---F---G---A---B---C(octave) = 8 tones
(1)--2---3--(4)-(5)--6---7---8

Now you can look at this scale as notes or chords.

I have no problem understanding the 1-4-5-7 theory. the C=1,4=F,5=G or as I was kinda taught actually a G7, What is the 7th a Bmaj or a min or something else. Is there a rule or standard for guidance? I also don't know where the augmented and suspended chords play in all of this. I have heard them called passing tones. In the simple stuff I play I don't see a lot of them, However discerning people like to know

[Michael Johnstone]

I don't want them to describe it to me verbally...

Exactly my point. Whether one knows classical theory or whether it's someone like Sneaky Pete Kleinow (one of the most original and creative guys to ever sit down behind a steel) who by the way,had his own personal take on chord relationships which revolved around geometry and the 360 degrees of a circle! Everyone with ears and enough bandstand experience can hear the 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 chords coming a mile away even if you don't know what to call them and never heard the song before. And if you miss a change in the first verse,you're crawling all over it in the second verse. If you don't yet have that - that's what you want to strive towards. All it takes I reckon is around 5000 gigs.

[Brint Hannay]

It's what I call dirt road country-boy music theory. Next week we will advance to demented chords and argumentive chords, and how they git related.

Sometimes the off chord is a demolished.

[Dean Parks]

Calvin-

Apparently the guy who made that chart calls a 2 chord an "off chord". For each of those keys, his "off chord" is a 2 chord.

[Jim Robbins]

Like Dean said. Whereas the guys I heard use it could mean any chord other than I, IV, or V.

Which just goes to show, different people use the same terms to mean different things.

I think terms like that are interesting because they point to expectations about common knowledge among various groups of musicians. Also the reactions to them ... Jazzers I've played with would never talk about "off chords" because their assumptions are you are supposed to know and hear everything. And note what Michael Johnstone said.

Another good one I remember hearing is "round the clock" although I mainly remember only one guy using it, so I don't know how common it really is (or was). He meant a circle of fifths (like a raggy progression for example in the key of C: A7, D7, G7 C).

[Larry Rafferty]

To the best of my knowledge the "off chord" is a term mainly used by accordion players. It simply means to take your middle finger off the root chord your are playing on the bass buttons and skip one button while moving your hand up the row.
Off chords are always played by moving up the scale and never played going down the scale.

If you look at the picture above the second row from the top is the row of root chords. You will notice that the "C" note is in the center of the row.
All chords with sharps are to the right of the "C" and all chords with flats are to the left of the middle C.

An easy way to remember where the off chord is when playing in sharps add 2 more sharps for the off chord. When playing in flats, subtract 2 flats for the off chord. Example: in the key of D (2 sharps), the off chord is E (4 sharps). In the key of Eb (3 flats) take away 2 flats, and the off chord is F (1 flat).

Many saxophone and steel guitar players I worked with in the 50's and 60's would either say play the "off chord" or jump out of key. Hope this sheds more light than confusion.

[Scott Shipley]

In relation to Hillbilly music, the "off chord" referred to a color chord. Ie, the E chord in Foggy Mountain Breakdown. Btw, Lester played an E major, not an E minor.