Scale length?

Gary Stevenson · Post by **Gary Stevenson** » 17 Apr 2009 7:38 pm

I would like some thoughts on what is a better scale length for a open E tuning: 22 1/2" or 25" I tend to use string gauges like 13 to 56. And this is for a six string lap steel.Other builders thoughts are very welcome

Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 17 Apr 2009 11:16 pm

The advantage of the 22 1/2 inch scale is in that it makes it easier to execute slants, particularly split slants and especially close to the nut. The less often one suses slant bar positions, the less one needs to consider a 22 1/2 inch scale guitar. The longer scales have better tone.

Mark Roeder · Post by **Mark Roeder** » 20 Apr 2009 10:57 am

If you want to have a G# on your high string you can't get it on a 25" ,I have broken strings trying to get G# on a 24". I think that is one reason the 22 1/2" has its place, those G's and G#'s.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 20 Apr 2009 12:06 pm

even with a lighter string?

Mark Roeder · Post by **Mark Roeder** » 20 Apr 2009 12:27 pm

Well I'm not an expert by any stretch, but what I understand is scale length and string tension and their breaking points are related. The standard 25" guitar scale has an E for its high string is partly due to the break point. You could try tuning a .010 or a .09 on a standard guitar and see how far you get. I haven't tried it but I think all you can get is f#. I may have to experiment an see what I get.

Rick Alexander · Post by **Rick Alexander** » 20 Apr 2009 7:43 pm

Gary, what Edward says is basically true - and I used to think that 22 1/2" scale was the only way to go.
BUT I've found that 24 1/2" scale tends to have better tone, more sustain and easier harmonics - and it is possible to execute accurate 3 string and split string slants all the way along the neck. Any longer than that and the lower frets become too widely spaced to perform these with ease.
So I would say 24 1/2" is the way to go, and 25" or more is pushing your luck.

There are a number of variables that affect tone, sustain and harmonics besides scale length - such as the bridge, the nut, the type of wood or other material the body is constructed of.

You didn't ask about this, but since Mark brought it up - I have high E13th tuning with G# on top on my 24 1/2" scale Remington and have never broken a string. I use a .012 string for it.
But when I tried it on my 26" scale Stringmaster, I could not tune any gauge string above G - So I can't put the E13 tuning on it. I must have broken 20 strings before I gave up and just left the high C6 tuning on that neck.

The approximate recommended gauges for the 6 string E Maj tuning would be:
[tab]E - .015
B - .020
G#- .022P
E - .030
B - .038
E - .056[/tab]

Don McGregor · Post by **Don McGregor** » 21 Apr 2009 5:43 am

Rick, I know you have had more opportunity than most of us to try different scale lengths, string spacing, and all, on different steel models,so please share your thoughts on string spacing as well. I see great pickers on Youtube such as Billy Robinson and Carco Clave apparently playing absolutely incredible things on what appear to be narrow, pedal steel string spacing. Am I wrong? Are three string slants even possible with this spacing?
Anyone else?
Mr Drury?
Also, how does different scale length affect pulling strings behind the bar? Easier on a 22-1/2"? Or, do you have to pull further on one scale than the other to raise a note the same half or whole step?
All I've ever had to go by is my old MOT 1955 Carvin double 8, with a 22-1/2" scale, and 3/8" spacing at the bridge, though it narrows a little toward the nut. I've got high C6 (G high string) and A6 on it at present, which allows me to hop between necks for different voicing and useable open strings without getting a brain tumor. Slants and pulls are really easy on it, but my harmonics are still a little sketchier than I would like. I've learned a lot from your first instructional DVD, so I would really value your input, as well as any opinions from anyone else out there
I'm building both a double 8 and a single 10 at present. I've got TT-8's and a TT-10, all with 3/8" spacing. I've got keyheads, bridges, pots, etc., and the wood roughed out, only now I'm torn between making them short scale as I am used to, or stretching it on out a bit for more tone. You are the first person I've heard say low slants are easy on a 24-1/2" scale, and I live to slant.
While I'm already this far afield, any suggstions out there on pot types and values on TT-8's and 10's?
Decisions, decisions.
Man! They don't it a fret board for nothin'!

Mark Roeder · Post by **Mark Roeder** » 21 Apr 2009 6:08 am

Rick
I also have a Remington in a 24" scale. I found I can get a G# no problem. I attribute that partly to the rounded nut and bridge because I have trouble on other bridges causing the string to break sometimes even before I get to the G#. Nice guitars!

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 21 Apr 2009 7:28 am

Gary...there are two lengths to be considered...the scale length, and the string length.

Strings break for several reasons. Tension is the first, and it also affects the other reasons. Some of the other reasons are bending over sharp corners, deformations at the sharp edges (bridge/nut) from sitting, nicks and scratches in the string, and twists in the string to name a few...then there are the burrs etc in the bridge/nut material.

RE tension and gauge...tension to pitch increases as the gauge increases, and increases as the scale length is increased. The string is tensioned more, and stretches more when the pitch is raised a halftone, than when it is lowered a halftone (it is non linear).

How much tension is too much? The old rule of thumb was that the max tension should be no more than 70% of the "plastic" point of the string. The plastic point of the string is where it does not return to pitch after being stretched beyond that point. It is less than the breaking point, but increases the breakage rate if exceeded.

There are two types of destructive forces at work on the string...that of stretch, and that of shear. Stretch is the straight line pull force (usually just called tension), and the bend forces (causing shear). Steeper bends, more shear = closer to breaking, and to the plasticity point. Pay attention to where the string breaks...nut, bridge, anchor points, or random.

Bending tensions (shear) increase the tension at the outer surface of the string (away from the touch point of the bend. Shallower is better...rounded touch points better than sharp/pinch type.

Pull tensions to pitch are a function of scale length...longer = more, shorter = less. Thinner gauges require less tension to pitch, but are more subject to manufacturing and handling differences...music wire making is not perfect = all G#s are not created equal.

The best indicator of a good string gauge for the purpose is the tone at pitch. Once in the plastic region you may hear more screechy/buzzy in the tone. This may also be due to the bridge/nut shape.

Absolute calculated values re tension vs. gauge vs. pitch vs. scale length if desired.

Re scale length...agreed that slants are easier to handle on shorter scale lengths, and that string pulls are further on long scale lengths (for the same gauges). A wider string separation all the way down the neck also helps re pulls and single string damping tricks.

Scale length has another factor to be considered...the "stiffness" of the string. Thicker gauges are stiffer than thin gauges. Stiffness reduces vibration. Tension overcomes stiffness. Tension for a given pitch is greater on longer scales, and shallower bends (nut/bridge)...hence "sustain" should be greater on longer scales and thinner strings (items like materials and shapes being considered equal)...till some other nasty effect like breakage takes over.

All that said, I use a 30" scale with 11/32" string separation all the way down the neck. I tune to C where you probably tune to E. My thin string is an 0.011" tensioned to E with approximately 33 pounds of pull (that would be your G# on an 25" scale length E tuning). Over the bridge/nut angles are about 10 degrees. The bridge is a brass rod = 3/16" dia.. The nut is aluminum with a 3/4" dia.

Mark Roeder · Post by **Mark Roeder** » 21 Apr 2009 8:45 am

That is great info Ed. That's really helpful.

Rick Barnhart · Post by **Rick Barnhart** » 21 Apr 2009 9:00 am

Gary, I'm certainly no expert when it comes to scale length or string gauge. I just had Tom Pettingill build a 25" scale teardrop lap steel. It's tuned to open D and the gauges are 16 22p 26w 36 42 58. Boy, it sings. I would think that the open E would be really similar with the 25" scale. With an open tuning, I don't really use a lot of bar slants, so for me, a shorter scale wouldn't really have any advantages.

Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 26 Apr 2009 12:05 pm

Mark Roeder wrote:Rick
I also have a Remington in a 24" scale. I found I can get a G# no problem. I attribute that partly to the rounded nut and bridge because I have trouble on other bridges causing the string to break sometimes even before I get to the G#. Nice guitars!

Nice? Having played a Remington, I'd have used a much stronger adjective.

Mark Durante · Post by **Mark Durante** » 26 Apr 2009 1:19 pm

I use a high G# on one of the necks on my T-8 26" scale Stringmaster. I will admit that some have broken when trying to restring but a good string will tune to pitch and will not break during normal playing.

Mark Roeder · Post by **Mark Roeder** » 26 Apr 2009 1:43 pm

Revision - Fabulous Piece of Craftsmenship!!!!!

Mark, what gauge string on that G#?

Mark Durante · Post by **Mark Durante** » 27 Apr 2009 2:34 am

.011
Tuning a string to G# at 26" will definitly test the quality of the steel and winding at the ball end.
I haven't played the T-8 all that regularly lately so the current string has been on for at least a year.

Rick Alexander · Post by **Rick Alexander** » 27 Apr 2009 5:56 am

String spacing:
The most common configuration is 3/8" at the bridge tapering to 5/16" at the nut.
Fenders, Gibsons, Nationals and Remingtons have these dimensions. Rickenbackers have 3/8" parallel.
And of course 10 string guitars generally have a narrower PSG spacing.
It's all what you're used to.
Carco plays PSG and he's used to that spacing.
He made his own 10 string lap steels with the same spacing.
He tends minimize his finger movements to get more speed.
Billy Robinson has 10 strings on a 12 string guitar neck, so he can have the wider spacing.
I prefer the 3/8" to 5/16" spacing probably because it's the one I'm most accustomed to.

Scale length:
24 1/2" will generally give a stronger tone, better harmonics and more sustain.
22 1/2 is somewhat easier to do slants on the lower frets.
String pulls are also easier because you don't have to pull as far to reach the desired interval.
If you like to do a lot of string pulls, it's a good idea to use slightly lighter gauge strings.

For tunings and recommended gauges - TUNINGS

Of all the guitars I've played, my favorite is the black 24 1/2" Remington T-8
It has the best tone, sustain and harmonics - and string pulls are not a problem.
And like all Remingtons, it stays in tune.

Blake Hawkins · Post by **Blake Hawkins** » 27 Apr 2009 6:04 am

I have a Gibson Console Grande on which the scale
measures 24 7/8" and use a .012 for a high G#.
It works fine and I haven't had any trouble with
string breakage.
The guitar is a 1956 model.

Rick Alexander · Post by **Rick Alexander** » 27 Apr 2009 6:25 am

Blake, I didn't have any trouble getting a G# on my GCG either - but on my 26" Stringmaster it was a different story.
I tried every gauge in the ballpark and snapped them all.
I remember Jody Carver telling me that many years ago Fender sent him a 26" Quad and he ended up sending it back for the same reason.
They sent him the 24 1/2" Quad that he still has today.

Mark, what brand of string did you use to get that G# on your 26" without breaking?
I even tried a .009 and it snapped. That's too light anyway, but I just wanted to see if it would.

Ferdinand van den Berg · Post by **Ferdinand van den Berg** » 27 Apr 2009 1:08 pm

Hi,

I made a demonstration lap steel for Jerry Douglas, he prefered a very wide 3/5" string spacing.
Lollar had to make a custom pickup for that!
I did a 3/8" spacing at the nut and just 22.5" scale.

* add:
I prefer to use the D'Addario Chrome flatwound string for lapsteels. For six string I use something like a standard 0.012 set with the 0.012 replaced by a 0.015 or so, to keep things practical.
Seperate D'Addario Chrome Flatwound strings are not available in Europe.

Mark Durante · Post by **Mark Durante** » 27 Apr 2009 6:21 pm

I've had my T-8 since '94. Changing 24 strings is not something I do any more than necessary but in those 15 years I've restrung many a time and used different brands. My main non-pedal tuning has always been E13 with the high G#. I don't really know if it's the particular batch of wire or what makes one string break and another not. I have had quite a number of new strings break. I'll use whatever works either .011 or .010, I think the one that's on now is probably D'Addario.

The Steel Guitar Forum

Scale length?

Scale length?

Scale length, gauges, tensions, etc.