C6: string 7 C-C# raise question

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 25 Apr 2009 9:24 pm

My guitar has string 7 on the C6 neck raising from C to C# with both pedal 8 and the RKR lever. There are a lot of pulls on RKR, and I'm thinking of taking the string 7 change off of it to reduce some the lever's stiffness. Seeing as this change is also on pedal 8, it seems redundant to have it on both pedal 8 and RKR. Will I be losing anything important by removing it from RKR seeing as it's also on pedal 8?

* I guess another way to ask this is if there is anyone who has the C6 string 7 C to C# raise on pedal 8 and a knee lever, and if so, why?

Thanks,
Cliff

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 26 Apr 2009 1:17 am

i have it on P8 as well as a LKV lever that raises both Cs to C#
as you mention Cliff, RKR is loaded (E9 & C6) & does'nt need it there
my RKR raises As to Bb on C6 & Eb to D & C# on string 2 as well as D to C# on string 9

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 26 Apr 2009 8:29 am

Thanks, CrowBear. I'm curious why you have the 7th string C to C# change on a LKV if you also have on pedal 8? Why do you have it in two places?

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 26 Apr 2009 8:40 am

Cliff,
I'm wondering if perhaps your knee lever also raises your third string C - C# as well as your 7th string.... while the 8th pedal only raises string 7 ?
I don't know, but that would make sense.
-John

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 26 Apr 2009 8:48 am

Hi John,
yes it does. Pedal 8 raises the 7th string and RKR raises the 3rd string, so in combination I can raise both strings to C#. So, is there a benefit to duplicating the 7th string raise with a lever if it's already on pedal 8?

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 26 Apr 2009 9:46 am

my P8 raises C to C# on string 7 only not on 3 Cliff
this is what John S refers too since one needs that minor third on string 3 on P8 (while avoiding string7 ?)
like many, i needed that 3rd string raise on a knee lever, so i figured might as well have it on string 7 too
that way i don't have to use P8 for that major chord all the time
the C to C# lever raise along w: P5 in the 3 above 0 postion gives you the 6th voicing that is found when one has a G on string one instead of the D

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 26 Apr 2009 9:56 am

Thanks, CrowBear.
Okay, that makes sense for your LKV. For me it's easy to just lean into RKR while I'm on pedal 8 to get both strings. I did back the change off of my RKR, and it helps with the feel of that lever. My E9 2nd string D#-D feel stop (on the way down to C#) feels a lot more positive.

Thank you,
Cliff

admin · Post by **b0b** » 26 Apr 2009 10:19 am

Buddy Emmons just raises the high C on the lever:

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Peter Freiberger · Post by **Peter Freiberger** » 26 Apr 2009 11:01 am

In the "Ask Buddy" archives on BuddyEmmons.com, in 2002 he indicates that he added the lower C to C# to his RKR. That may not be his current set up, or course.

John Swain · Post by **John Swain** » 26 Apr 2009 11:07 am

By having both Cs raising to C#s you can use it with pedal 5 to get full C6 chord on the 3rd fret strings 2-9! See Buck Reid's copedant..JS

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 26 Apr 2009 11:19 am

One reason to have both str. #3 & #7 from C to C# on a KL is that if you add #5-Pedal~Change, which Lowers str. #4 and Raises Str.'s #9 & #10 you have an A6/D Maj.7-Tuning, besides the P–8 change. It's naturally a little stiff on the RKR, when Lowering str.'s #2 w/half-stop & #9 on the E9-Neck. But, it just takes a little getting used to and hurts nothing!

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 26 Apr 2009 5:54 pm

Cliff,
Your 8th pedal change, which only raises the 7th string, gives you these two important chords:
[tab]
....C7#9.....C13

1----------------
2----------------
3---3--------9---
4----------------
5---3--------9---
6----------------
7---3(8------9(8-
8----------------
9----------------
10---------------
[/tab]
In the case of C7#9, you also have the root on the 10th string, which I didn't include.
Anyway, the striking dissonance in both these chords comes from the fact that your 3rd string note and 7th string note are so close together. (In the first chord, Eb and E natural. In the second (13th)chord, A and Bb)
Of course, if your 8th pedal also raised your 3rd string, you wouldn't have these voicings.

However, your lever which raises both your 3rd and 7th (which I wish I had) gives you a nice strummable chord
[tab]
....C7

1-------
2---3---
3---3(R-
4---3---
5---3---
6---3---
7---3(R-
8---3---
9-------
10------
[/tab]

And that's why (imho) they are two seperate functions.
- John

Parr Bryan · Post by **Parr Bryan** » 27 Apr 2009 12:15 pm

If you want to see if taking off the RKR pull will make that lever easier to push FIRST JUST adjust the rod to where that 7 string is not pulling at all and that should give you the feel of not having that pull.
I do this on a D10 all the time on C6 side and just tighten it back up before the song it's need on.

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 27 Apr 2009 3:23 pm

I'm not sure if b0b's Emmons Post is the latest or not, but; I think the latest copedent I saw both #3 & #7 Raising on the RKR. At least that's the way I have it and I like it that way! I forget where I got the idea, but; more than likely from Emmons, being a long-time Emmons~Fan!

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 27 Apr 2009 9:42 pm

Adding pedal 5 to the full (7th and 3rd string raises) C7 chord at the 3rd fret yields a full "three frets up" major position, analogous to the "A & F" pedal position on E9. Very handy along with the altered stuff you can get with pedal 8.

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 27 Apr 2009 9:52 pm

When you combine P-8 with P-7, you have an A11-Tuning on #10 thru #3:
A~E~A~C#~E~G~B~D as compared to B11
B~A~C#~D#~F#~A~C#~E, good for Hawaiian-Tunes, such as ‘SAND’!