Intonation issue

[basilh]

Back on the topic, In my opinion based on all I've experienced in 55 years of Pro work, the intonation issue on LAP Steels (in particular) and steel guitars in general, is negated by the AVERAGE player's inability to maintain CONSTANT pressure accurately and to not hear to an accuracy of +/- 10 cents or so.
MOST fall at those hurdles. IMHO.

[basilh]

Just my $0.02

Pick-up placement is also a little strange unless the player is going to use the instrument for blues and such like semi overdriven applications.

The pickup looks to me to be in the same place as a Strat middle pickup, with is one of my absolute favorite clean tones. Nothing weird there.

Except that the placement of pickups on Lap Steels has long been close to the bridge, Makers Like Gibson, Fender, Rickenbacker, and MOST of the TOP manufacturers follow that protocol.. BECAUSE :-

It's all to do with 'Perceived Sustain' and the height of the transient as opposed to the rest of the signal from a given note.

The further from the bridge the more the ratio changes because the initial part of the signal (Note) is greater. The string moves more INITIALLY in the magnetic field.

If you looked at the waveform in an oscilloscope you'd see a much greater variation with the the pickup further away from the bridge.

The ear will take the transient as being the reference and consequently the later sustained part of the note will SEEM to fade quicker giving the illusion of less sustain.

This has been explained elsewhere much more eloquently than I am doing. A search of the forum archive for "Transient" MAY yield results

You can get a lot of information from these posts

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/009053.html
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum15/HTML/013771.html
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/013706.html
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/005762.html

[Steinar Gregertsen]

Whilst I pretty sure you don't need instruction in steel guitar playing, I'm not so sure about reading interpretation and social skills.

Oh dear, oh dear... I'm sure you can teach me enough about steel playing and music in general to keep me occupied for the rest of my lifetime Basil.

So please explain to me what I said that warranted the "Silly" remark ?

Your use of the word "Pros" to legitimate your own opinions and experiences, and in doing that you imply that those who has other opinions and preferences are not 'proper professional'.

Perhaps that wasn't your intention, but that's how it came across.
So before you go on commenting on my "reading interpretation and social skills" perhaps you should take a long and hard look at how you deliver your messages if they get misunderstood repeatedly,- more often than not the reason for the misunderstanding is in the delivery, not on the receiving end.

Oh, and this is not the "bash Basil" day, that's not until the 25th.

[basilh]

Steinar.. differing interpretations of phraseology are probably (there's that word AGAIN) the main reason for "Flame Wars"
Most of the time perpetrated by what I call (Laughingly) the "Transatlantic Syndrome."
Or Trans Nordic, as the case may be.

In THIS instance there is an obvious miscommunication of intent. Albeit at my end or wherever.. Nonetheless I didn't for one minutia use the word "Pro" to legitimise my opinion.. My legitimacy is in some doubt if you believe the names I'm sometimes called.

So I'll await with "Bated Breath" the 25th..And have my "Vitriolic Pen" Poised to strike.

[Twayn Williams]

The actual fact of the matter is that many "Pros" simply don't care about such things and can pull their sound out of almost anything.

Twayne would that be an actual fact based on your own experience, or just your own opinion as a protagonist on this Anti-Basil Day ?

You are absolutely right. I shouldn't have used the phrase "actual fact". Instead I can state that my 25+ years of playing and recording, reading interviews with "pro" players and seeing what those players are using on the stage informs my opinion! Which is that it's not really the equipment that matters, it's the player and many "pro" players share this opinion. Though not all I'm certain.

If "Anti-Basil Day" is a holiday, can I go home from work early?

Also you say

what about all them pedal steels?

Now THAT would be questioning, except, If you PLEASE read my post again, do I not state "Lap Steel" ?

Sure, I just broadened out the conversation a little is all. The analogy fits.

[Twayn Williams]

Just my $0.02

Pick-up placement is also a little strange unless the player is going to use the instrument for blues and such like semi overdriven applications.

The pickup looks to me to be in the same place as a Strat middle pickup, with is one of my absolute favorite clean tones. Nothing weird there.

Except that the placement of pickups on Lap Steels has long been close to the bridge, Makers Like Gibson, Fender, Rickenbacker, and MOST of the TOP manufacturers follow that protocol.. BECAUSE :-

It's all to do with 'Perceived Sustain' and the height of the transient as opposed to the rest of the signal from a given note.

The further from the bridge the more the ratio changes because the initial part of the signal (Note) is greater. The string moves more INITIALLY in the magnetic field.

I don't disagree with this reasoning. And you're certainly right that a pup in the middle position would not give a "classic" lap steel sound.

What I do say is that using a pickup in the "middle" position will simply result in a different (and to my ears, good) tone. Amount of sustain is not everything. Otherwise no one would play those sustain sucking bolt neck 6-stringers I prefer my lap steels to sound like guitars, i.e unlike how my PSG sounds with its massive sustain.

I actually really, really want a pickup in right about that position in addition to the standard bridge position. Every now and then I'll flip my Stat onto it's back an play it with a bar and I really like the tone of the neck and middle pickups that way. Someday I'll have a custom built steel with a Strat-style pup arrangement.

I've also played some old Gibson archtops that have a single P-90 in the middle position and I thought is was one of the best sounding guitars I've ever played.

[Gary Lynch]

Just my $0.02
The pickup looks to me to be in the same place as a Strat middle pickup, with is one of my absolute favorite clean tones. Nothing weird there.

Except that the placement of pickups on Lap Steels has long been close to the bridge, Makers Like Gibson, Fender, Rickenbacker, and MOST of the TOP manufacturers follow that protocol.. BECAUSE :-

It's all to do with 'Perceived Sustain' and the height of the transient as opposed to the rest of the signal from a given note.

The further from the bridge the more the ratio changes because the initial part of the signal (Note) is greater. The string moves more INITIALLY in the magnetic field.

I don't disagree with this reasoning. And you're certainly right that a pup in the middle position would not give a "classic" lap steel sound.

What I do say is that using a pickup in the "middle" position will simply result in a different (and to my ears, good) tone. Amount of sustain is not everything. Otherwise no one would play those sustain sucking bolt neck 6-stringers I prefer my lap steels to sound like guitars, i.e unlike how my PSG sounds with its massive sustain.

I actually really, really want a pickup in right about that position in addition to the standard bridge position. Every now and then I'll flip my Stat onto it's back an play it with a bar and I really like the tone of the neck and middle pickups that way. Someday I'll have a custom built steel with a Strat-style pup arrangement.

I've also played some old Gibson archtops that have a single P-90 in the middle position and I thought is was one of the best sounding guitars I've ever played.

Good information. Also, many slide players from the past and in the present do not fret their COMPENSATED SADDLE guitars and play them strictly slide.

[Steinar Gregertsen]

So I'll await with "Bated Breath" the 25th..And have my "Vitriolic Pen" Poised to strike.

And I'll study my Shakespeare Insult Kit...

[Alan Brookes]

Check the saddles out....

Yes, they're all wrong. As Basil said, compensation is unnecessary on an instrument without frets.

[Fred Kinbom]

Check the saddles out....

Yes, they're all wrong. As Basil said, compensation is unnecessary on an instrument without frets.

I just compared playing an octave with a straight bar on the 4th and 6th string at the 12th fret on a Weissenborn with a straight saddle and on one with a compensated saddle - in both cases, the note on the 6th string sounded slightly sharp in comparison to the note on the 4th string, but on the guitar with the compensated saddle, the note was less sharp. How can that be "wrong"?

Like Steinar said, one has to adjust to the instrument one plays, and one has to rely more on the ears than anything else.

Obviously, both straight and compensated saddles work on lap steels - making it sound good is up to the player in both cases.

Fred

[Gary Lynch]

It seems people who play 6 string acoustic hollownecks and lap steels often, can definitely hear a difference as some of us have mentioned.

I can hear it without any strain and have to compensate the large D string or A string, depending.

Are we mental, inexperienced, poor musicians, or in fact is it true? I can state without a stretch that both Steinar and Fred are 'A' class musicians when it comes to these matters so I doubt ( and know) it's NOT experience or poor musicianship that's in question. Oh, I also forgot Ben Harper along with Fred and Steinar, who plays a compensated lap.

[Gary Lynch]

"Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I've found that straight vs compensated bridge saddle is not an issue, due to variable bar pressure, angle and vibrato, when playing steel guitar ( lap-style ) intonation is in the hand and ear.(imho)"

Chris Drew
Bristol, UK

[Chuck Fisher]

I say even if it takes a compensated nut like a Feiten or fixed or adjustable bridge, i say if you set up like a plumb-bob as accurate as possible it best. Short scales low notes are frequently iffy - but WE COMPENSATE. BUT accurate is nice to play.....

[basilh]

Good information. Also, many slide players from the past and in the present do not fret their COMPENSATED SADDLE guitars and play them strictly slide.

And how "In Tune" are the majority, or is the pitchyness part of the style ?

[Darrell Urbien]

What makes this thread (and the others linked above) fascinating reading is Basil's argument flying in the face of so much empirical evidence. Or I suppose you could say people's mistaken perceptions flying in the face of the laws of physics...

Fred, is there any way you could take the guitar that you say requires "compensation" over to Basil and see if he can play it "straight" and in tune?

Would make an interesting bar bet, if anything!

[Alan Brookes]

Are people really keeping the bar straight. Unless we move our heads parallel to the bar our pespective will change. As we've discussed in other threads, our arms move a little like windshield wipers. I'm seriously considering building a lap steel with fanned nut, frets and bridge, to experiment with this. For those who are not familiar with fanned fretboards, here is a bell cittern I built about 12 years ago...
(The one on the left. The one on the right is a mediaeval ribbed 8-string guitar.)


Check out these old discussions on the subject...
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/008992.html
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... highlight=

[Gary Lynch]

I'm seriously considering building a lap steel with fanned nut, frets and bridge, to experiment with this. For those who are not familiar with fanned fretboards, here is a bell cittern I built about 12 years ago...
(The one on the left. The one on the right is a mediaeval ribbed 8-string guitar.)


Check out these old discussions on the subject...
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/008992.html
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... highlight=

Makes sense and worth a try. For all we know that's how most will be built in 100 years from now.

[basilh]

I awoke this morning (Just 2 minutes ago) to a thought struggling to be expanded upon.

If this is a real rather than perceived issue, how come it isn't a heated topic on resonator guitar forums, Spider Bridge or Biscuit, they DON'T have the compensation being advocated here.

If it isn't an issue for the likes of Jerry Douglas and other world class resonator players why is it an issue on a guitar that basically is the same, minus the resonator ?

To me it's always been the Hand and the Ear that determines pitch NOT the hand and the Eye.
This instrument in all its guises is basically a fretless one with marked guides.

And that's not even touching on the point that academics have oft considered that blues players play sharp and flat for effect.

[Gary Lynch]

I awoke this morning (Just 2 minutes ago) to a thought struggling to be expanded upon.

If this is a real rather than perceived issue, how come it isn't a heated topic on resonator guitar forums, Spider Bridge or Biscuit, they DON'T have the compensation being advocated here.

If it isn't an issue for the likes of Jerry Douglas and other world class resonator players why is it an issue on a guitar that basically is the same, minus the resonator ?

To me it's always been the Hand and the Ear that determines pitch NOT the hand and the Eye.
This instrument in all its guises is basically a fretless one with marked guides.

And that's not even touching on the point that academics have oft considered that blues players play sharp and flat for effect.

Perhaps one of the the best points made, "It's the ear". One can even go into trance like meditation with eyes closed, and play using the ear and years of experience with the instrument. When I play my double bass, in some positions, I find myself not thinking theory and steps, but listening to where I am going or coming from.

One bright minded musician, who many of you may remember once said; "There is no wrong note if you know how to recover".

And, it's interesting that many players 'fret' Resophonic guitars with straight saddles! So it is indeed VERY interesting to think how wild it all is.

[basilh]

Gary, you missed my "Hidden Remark" !

[Alan Brookes]

I, too, have been thinking about this one. The calculation of fret positions is done mathematically on the basis of a straight line. When you touch the bar with the steel you have to put some pressure on the string, or it would rattle. Depending on the weight of the bar and how much you press down, the string will be stretched out of tune. Imagine keeping the bar in one place, plucking the string, and then pushing down on the bar heavily. The pitch will rise. But is compensation for this necessary ? In fact the rise would depend on the left-hand pressure, and can be controlled. The only place you couldn't do this would be at the nut, but the closer to the octave (half-way) point of the string, the more your pressure would sharpen the note. This is more complicated than first thought...

[Lynn Oliver]

I don't know what spacings are using on lap steels, but the spacings used for fretted instruments are (at least by some builders) adjusted to compensate for for the strings stretching when fretted.

I've had several custom instruments built with this type of fret spacings.

[Gary Lynch]

I don't know what spacings are using on lap steels, but the spacings used for fretted instruments are (at least by some builders) adjusted to compensate for for the strings stretching when fretted.

I've had several custom instruments built with this type of fret spacings.

When the nut or saddle is adjusted (higher/lower) for the player, that would make a difference in that type of calculation, right? I doubt that is done by a luthier since we each like action different heights.

[Alan Brookes]

...I doubt that is done by a luthier since we each like action different heights.

Actually, at our bimonthly meetings of the Northern California Association of Luthiers the topic of compensation for string pulldown frequently comes up. ALL luthiers allow some compensation, but I haven't seen the subject debated regarding steel guitars before.