The Year a Fender 400 Was Made?

Donny Dennis · Post by **Donny Dennis** » 31 Mar 2009 3:36 pm

The serial number of this Fender 400 is 02605. Can anyone advise what year this Fender 400 was made from the serial number?

Thanks in advance for your assistance.

Donny

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 2 Apr 2009 4:42 am

Fender didn't build using sequential numbers, but yours was likely made between '65 and '70. If you supply some pictures, I might be able to guess something closer, as Fender constantly made design changes (almost 50 of them), and I have approximated dates for most of them. If nothing else (and if they haven't been changed), the date-codes on the pots might also get you within a few years.

Donny Dennis · Post by **Donny Dennis** » 2 Apr 2009 5:55 am

The Fender 400, is owned by a friend of mine. It is very similiar to the Fender 400, pictured below. I talked to a Fender Guitars Customer Service Rep. a few days ago, and was told that it was probably built in the early 1950s: 1950 - 1954. He also provided a phone number to the Gruhn Guitar Co., that deals with vintage guitars, and advised that someone there might be able to provide a closer estimate of when it was built. I e-mailed that information to my friend. If the Gruhn Guitar Co., was unable to provide a closer estimate of when it was built I will take a few photos but it will be sometime next week before I will be able to post the photos as my friend currently has company at his house.

Donny

Jussi Huhtakangas · Post by **Jussi Huhtakangas** » 2 Apr 2009 6:02 am

Hate to say it but both Fender co and Gruhn are not your expert sources for anything steel guitar. And this guitar was not built in the early 50's since Fender didn't start building pedal steels until latter part of the 50's. Donny, Jim Sliff and others here are your best help with it and will know for sure when this guitar was built.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 2 Apr 2009 6:08 am

sometimes there is a date written under the tuning pan. The short scale (as pictured) models were made after the long scale so most likely not in the 50's...um...i think...

Donny Dennis · Post by **Donny Dennis** » 2 Apr 2009 6:13 am

Jussi, thanks for the info. If my friend still wants to know when his Fender 400, was made will take a few photos next week to post on the forum.

Donny

Donny Dennis · Post by **Donny Dennis** » 2 Apr 2009 6:17 am

As I stated earlier his Fender 400, looks very similiar to the one pictured as the color scheme to me looks the same. However, it has 33 frets.

Donny

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 2 Apr 2009 7:48 am

The model pictured above is likely a '66 model, whereas your friends long-scale guitar sounds more like a '64. The Fender guy you talked to was way off base, since the first of the (double-neck) 1000's weren't made until 1955, and they were made some time before any (single-neck) 400 models were made. Also, to my knowledge, Gruhn has no one on staff that specializes in pedal guitars.

Lastly, unless my memory is failing me, the long-scale guitars only had 31 frets.

Donny Dennis · Post by **Donny Dennis** » 7 Apr 2009 1:14 pm

A few photos of my friend's Fender 400 PSG. It has 8 strings, 33 frets, and 4 pedals. Hopefully, someone can provide a close guesstimate of the year it was made.

Again, appreciate all responses.

Donny

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 7 Apr 2009 1:32 pm

The guitar is DEFINITELY from the mid '60s to early '70s. Does the black tolex case have a Fender logo on it, the same as the logo on a blackface amp? Fender started putting the logo on the case in 1967.

I hate to think a Fender rep would tell you the guitar was made in the early fifties. Fender didn't begin making steels with pedals until 1957. They should know these things!

Chris

George Macdonald · Post by **George Macdonald** » 7 Apr 2009 2:00 pm

Donny, I can't tell from the serial number, but I can tell you that I bought one that looked very much like that one only mine had six pedals, in 1964, about a year after my wife and I moved from Canada to So. Calif. George

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 7 Apr 2009 3:14 pm

Donny, that is also a short scale model, and a likely vintage would be '66 or '67.

Donny Dennis · Post by **Donny Dennis** » 7 Apr 2009 3:33 pm

In regard to the question concerning the black tolex case it did not come with a case.

Donny

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 7 Apr 2009 3:35 pm

check under the tuning pan yet?

Michael Maddex · Post by **Michael Maddex** » 8 Apr 2009 6:13 pm

Donny D., nice looking 400. I hope you find a case for it. I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I have a couple of questions for Donny Hinson.

Donny Hinson wrote:... Fender constantly made design changes (almost 50 of them), and I have approximated dates for most of them. ...

Have you posted this list of changes here on the Forum or elsewhere on the Web?

Here's a detail from one of the photos above:

Is this cable guide a stock item?

Roger Shackelton · Post by **Roger Shackelton** » 9 Apr 2009 12:54 am

When did FENDER go from the chrome sheet metal pedals to the black cast pedals ??

ROGER

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 9 Apr 2009 5:42 am

Late 1963/early 1964. there several guitars built that were indicative of Leo Fender's "use everything" philosophy, and they came to market initially with short-scale bodies, bright sunburst finishes (unlike the earlier long-scale transparent sunburst), Jag-type pickup....and chrome pedals!

COllectors often try to use Gruhn for Fender steel info, figuring any vintage Fender must be worth a zillion bucks - a '58 Strat, after all, can easily go for $40k. But a '58 400 in the same condition might be $1500. However, Gruhn's staff apparently knows zip about Fender pedal steels; they ARE somewhat knowledgable about non-pedal models (which are actually more collectable...the pedal models are more valuable as "players") but they have no clue how to even identify the two major types - short and long scale.

The guitar in this thread in 1964 or later. It would take close examination of the pics to be more accurate. BTW, pot dates mean nothing on these guitars - they usually used 1-meg pots, with the bulk of them purchased in 1956! I've seen short-scale guitars "positively identified" as 1956 instruments because of pots codes.

Serial numbers are also not just seemingly random, some have even been seen repeated. Once in a while a date will be written under the tuner plate - that's at least a body date, but NOT a finished guitar date according to Fender sources - bodies stacked up, especially later short scales - sometimes for a few years.

They CAN be categorized, but "dating" is nearly impossible to do accurately.

Donny Dennis · Post by **Donny Dennis** » 9 Apr 2009 5:51 am

Ben, am not sure where the tuning pan is but have looked closely over the whole guitar, and failed to find anything other than the metal strip that reflects the model/serial number.

In regard to the case my friend who owns the guitar is considering building a case for it himself. I mentioned that he could probably purchase a case for it for approximately $80, from one of the vendors on this forum.

Donny

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 9 Apr 2009 8:36 am

Michael Maddex wrote: Have you posted this list of changes here on the Forum or elsewhere on the Web?

No. Such large amounts of data usually just create large arguments.

Here's a detail from one of the photos above...
Is this cable guide a stock item?[/quote]

Not really!

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 9 Apr 2009 12:07 pm

Donny W. Dennis wrote:Ben, am not sure where the tuning pan is but have looked closely over the whole guitar, and failed to find anything other than the metal strip that reflects the model/serial number.

In regard to the case my friend who owns the guitar is considering building a case for it himself. I mentioned that he could probably purchase a case for it for approximately $80, from one of the vendors on this forum.

Donny

Hi Donny, The tuning pan is that chrome thing at the end of the guitar where the tuning pegs come out of. It almost lokos like an ashtray. They are easy to remove and reinstall, just remove the strings and unscrew it, lift it up and see if someone has penciled a date in under there. If your not inclined to do that, i think these guys have fairly good handle on a rough estimate for a date, but if you want to know for sure, there is a chance it is written under that tuningn pan. some have a date there, some dont...or so I'm told.

In your picure here, the tuning pan is on the far left

Terje Brattsveen · Post by **Terje Brattsveen** » 9 Apr 2009 3:28 pm

I bought this guitar at Gruhn a little over a year ago. Although they are nice people, they do not seem to have any indepth knowledge of pedal steel guitars. A lot of their PSG's are on consignment. Jim Sliff, Donny Hinson and Russ Tcak (I probably mis-spelled Russ' last name) is your forum go-to-guys. There are a few others around the world, like Basihl in England and my old neighbour from Finland, and I have never gone wrong following any of their advice. These are great instruments with great tone and a lot of soul....and you gotta love that paint job.

Donny Dennis · Post by **Donny Dennis** » 9 Apr 2009 3:51 pm

Ben, thanks for the info on the tuning pan. My friend who owns the guitar just changed the strings on it yesterday so it is unlikely that he would be willing to remove the strings again so soon. However, I will pass on the info you have provided so that the next time he changes the strings he can remove the tuning pan to see if a date has been penciled in under there.

Thanks much to all who have responded.

Donny

james sluder · Post by **james sluder** » 9 Apr 2009 4:52 pm

I have the same guitar as you have pictured ! My case has the Fender chrome logo on it ! I was told by a psg builder & player that it was made 65-67 since it has the black iron pedals on it !

They are really sweet playing guitars !
I hope this helps !! Jim

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 9 Apr 2009 9:25 pm

I was told by a psg builder & player that it was made 65-67 since it has the black iron pedals on it !

"I was told by" is where a lot of misconceptions get tossed around.

That builder/player is wrong.

A black pedal, short scale would officially be a 1964 - 1981 guitar.

In reality, it could be a 1963 to somewhere in the late 70's...folks who worked in the factory recall them still being in the catalog but not manufactured or shipped after '76-'78 or so,and the last ones were a mere handful made from leftover parts.

Marty Muse · Post by **Marty Muse** » 10 Apr 2009 6:38 am

Hey guys, excuse my ignorance and simplistic question but when did Fender start making pedal steels? I have seen a lot of different dates thrown around. Is there a definitive answer to this question? Also, who was involved with the original design of the original Fender pedal steel (Fender 1000?)? Thanks. MM