I have seen pics of some players who don't play country and there seems to be nothing wrong with the MSA guitars they were playing.
Geeze! I played my old MSA in country and country-rock bands for 29 years...thousands and thousands of gigs. I sure wish somebody had told me I was "breaking the rules".
I am puzzled as to why there is so much apparent controversy over the statement that a given brand of guitar has an “inherent tone”. I am NOT puzzled when people begin to argue which is “the best”, because that will go on till the end of time with no resolution - it is all personal opinion and everybody has their favorite horse when it comes to make. Big deal.
I‘ve had 5 or 6 steels and have used primarily one amp my whole steel playing “career”, a Nashville 400, and I can say without a doubt each guitar had it’s own individual “voice”. And to me that just makes sense, given the multitude of variables a manufacturer can choose regarding steel “ingredients” (i.e. metal or wood necks, mica or wood cab, type of wood used, lacquered vs. non, changer system, key head length, P/P or all-pull, pick-ups, and on and on). In fact I’d be surprised if different guitar brands, or even models within a brand, did NOT exhibit tonal “differences”, however minor. How much people hear those differences will vary, and obviously the player and amp come into play as well.
I could sit here and try and prove that I could tell the difference tonally between all the steels I have owned, but I could no more “prove” it than prove gravity exists (although I have yet to float upwards out of my steel seat while playing)! And this post in no way is intended as disrespect to Mr. Anderson’s vast experience as a steel builder and player – I’m just an average player giving my 2 cents based on my own experiences and what logic tells me.
Way back on page one of this thread, Carl D. paraphrased a quote apparently Buddy Emmons made here on the forum that I think is worth repeating:
"I love the Sierra, but I had a sound in my head, that I could not get out of it, so I went back to my old guitar".
Scott H……I took no offense at all concerning your comments, and because you felt the possibility existed, I will consider your post as being directed to me for my response.
One of my earliest posts provided an explanation to your opening line statement concerning your puzzlement, and explained why it was important for MSA many years ago to make an effort to determine if a consistent inherent tone existed in a specific guitar(s)
.
You are of course right in that a debate concerning which is “the best” guitar can go on forever, but as you read through this thread from the beginning, you will find that has not been the focus in this thread. Most will agree all three guitars we are discussing were considered……”good guitars”.
I of course believe you when you say each guitar you owned sounded different, which could have been attributed to many things, but the underlying question is, “could you have heard a consistent inherent tone in any of your guitars were you to not see the guitars being played after each was adjusted to a like sound which you prefer”?
Contrary to your expressed experiences and logic, there is a way to prove if CIT (consistent Inherent tone) exists, and experimenting with the evaluation parameters we have discussed on this thread will provide the answer to that question.
Concerning the quote…..who could disagree with the icon of steel guitar. However I respectfully maintain that which was paraphrased on page one, is relative ONLY to the person who made the original statement, who did “not” imply CIT exists, as evidenced by how many times he used the word “I” in one sentence.
I appreciate your comments and the kind demeanor of your post and trust you will accept my response in the same spirit I accepted yours.
I love what Donny Hinson said about tapping on your pedal steel body and hearing it go, "THUNK". That to me was the epitome of simplicity! I've gone back and read that post several times. That was good!
Maybe we should tap tune our guitar bodies. I've been meaning to ask Reece for the proper procedure to tune the legs and end plates on my Classic. It ain't in the manual.
This has got to be one of the most interesting, intriguing and informative threads on the forum in some time.
One of the great problems about the tone thing is we are all slightly different in our perception of what is the tone unique to any given brand. Subtle differences in our individual audio response might totally mask - or, conversely, amplify - a slight difference in tone between two guitars of different makes, or even between two consecutive identical guitars off one production-line - if such a thing exists in the arcane world of steel-guitar building.
My own hearing is now in its sixth decade of use, and I have been around firearms and jet engines for rather too long than is good for it. My frequency-range and bandwidth is nothing like that of a 20-year old player, yet I am sure we could both agree on what we felt was the tone we heard in any particular brand of steel-guitar if we both heard it played at the same time by the same player.
The number of variables are immense; we have all seen the arguments - carried on with all the ferocity of ancient clerics arguing abstruse points of canon law - in other threads about which picks, pickups, pre-amps, amplifiers, effects, woods, necks, tone-bars etc give "the best tone" or the tone alleged to belong to a particular make, and that is with just the subjectivity of our frail, imperfect ears and associated audio processing hardware/firmware/software. Do we need to go to the length of anechoic chambers, audio frequency spectrum-analysers and mechanical string-picking machines in order to prove or disprove the point? If we reduce the sound of steel guitars to that obtained under the repeatable but sterile conditions of an acoustic laboratory, we remove one of the essential but most variable, factors - the player himself.
The steel guitar only comes to life when played, and it translates the emotions of the player into sound. The "chord-inversion machine" is also an "emotional translator". On its own it is inert, lifeless; mute, yet strangely beautiful with its gleaming rods, tuning-keys, changer, cabinet, legs, levers, pedals and strings glinting in the light. It looks improbable to the unknowing onlooker, but in the hands of a master it can pierce the core of your heart with a single note.
Several posters have remarked how they believe they can hear inherent or intrinsic tone in any one brand, and that other brands have different inherent tone. Vive la difference! What a stultifyingly dull and depressing world it would be if all pedal steels had exactly the same tone. I can't make such a distinction, but I am in the happy position of admiring pretty much all the steel-guitar playing I get to hear. Perhaps, as Leo Kottke once remarked, the secret to happiness is being easily amused.
Pre-eminent amongst the many contributors is Reece Anderson. In Australia, Reece would be known as a "National Living Treasure", and deservedly so, for such he truly is. If anyone can speak with the authority born of decades of building experience, it is Reece. I place the highest value on his pronouncements on MSA steels because he is in the unique position of having perhaps the most intimate knowledge of that marque of any living human being. His gentlemanly conduct throughout, and wisdom so selflessly shared, commend him most highly.
Likewise, when Kevin Hatton posts on ZB Custom guitars, I afford his comments the highest value, for he too is a builder with intimate knowledge, and he has the added burden of taking on a brand with an established reputation for distinctive tone - and engineering. Such a task is not for the faint-hearted and Kevin's passion for the ZB is self-evident.
I also appreciate the expertise of the veteran players and builders of other brands who have added their wisdom to the thread. Gentlemen, you far exceed my humble achievements with the steel-guitar; I have never built one and only ever owned two, the latter of which I play with average facility - on a good day. It produces a tone which sometimes satisfies me, but whenever it doesn't I recognise immediately the deficiency lies in me and my playing and not in anything intrinsic to the guitar.
I currently do not own an MSA (although there is a blonde lacquered-maple Classic XL D10 not too far away which is sorely tempting), but the repeated testaments to their engineering sophistication, durability, sustain, appearance, build-quality and tone indicate the MSA steel guitar is a marque worthy of the term "classic".
If the builders of the old classic steels were able to speak, we would have many diverse and varying opinions about what exactly contributes to the tone of the Sho-Buds, Emmons and any other brands, including the MSA. Doubtless there would be points of commonality too. But the passage of time has taken many from us, and we have to be content with the legacy of their output and the players who give these instruments voice; the sound that brings a tear to the eye or causes you to catch your breath in wonderment.
Everyone who has contributed to this thread has made a useful input. Robust and vigorous debate is the mark of a free society and shows the confidence of people who feel strongly enough to make a statement. From all your posts I have learned much, enough to know that if an MSA finds a place in my future, I will be well-satisfied with whatever tone is intrinsic to the instrument itself. Whatever I find lacking will be entirely my own fault and not that of the guitar. The same is true of any brand of steel, irrespective of what inherent tone it has.
What a truly astonishing instrument we have, and what an amazing community has established itself in the bits and bytes of cyberspace via this forum.
The steel guitar is a hard mistress. She will obsess you, bemuse and bewitch you. She will dash your hopes on what seems to be whim, only to tease you into renewing the relationship once more so she can do it to you all over again...and yet, if you somehow manage to touch her in that certain magic way, she will yield up a sound which has so much soul, raw emotion and heartfelt depth to it that she will pierce you to the very core of your being.
Reece Anderson is a recognized, "National Treasure". I can't think of anyone who has been responsible for building more pedal steel guitars. He is a CSGP! Certified Steel Guitar Picker, extraordinaire.
As to the relevance of this thread, I started it because I sensed a tendency of of folks to try and put MSA in a second place position when it comes to vintage pedal steels. All through supposition, and point to point imagination. Meaning; this is made of that, so it must sound this way.
That kind of thinking can, and does, lead to some erroneous conclusions.
The MSA was in my opinion, the best constructed, with the most consistent high quality manufacturing, of any of the vintage guitars.
I believe some folks seized on the fact that some of the guitars, including my D10 Classic, used laminated wood in the construction of the body, and tried to cast dispersions on the supposed "Inherent Tone" of the guitars. They then try to relegate them, (MSA guitars), to a position they feel is far below the supposed "Inherent Tone", of Sho-Bud and Emmons.
These same folks seem to have decided through supposition, and point to point imaginations, that the laminated wood in the body of the affected MSA's has doomed them to a bad tone, that cannot be overcome.
This idea is pure bunk! Laminated wood has been used in the construction of the best pianos for more than a hundred years. Good wood laminates are a useful construction material, and can have great tonal qualities.
All of the pedal steel guitars we have come to accept, and play, are built from the much same materials, and follow much the same construction methods. Maple, aluminum, steel, Formica, and lacquer.
To try and imagine that Shot Jackson, or Ron Lashley searched the world, and found someone to cast end plates with just the right amount of voids to give a flowing beautiful tone, is not reality.
Neither is it reality to imagine that because the pull rods pick up vibrations from the strings, that they are imparting a stupendous tone to the guitar. All of the pull rods, in all guitars exhibit sympathetic vibrations.
Reece Anderson, through tests at MSA, factually proved, that in a blind test persons cannot consistently identify a brand of guitar from it's tone.
The person who can consistently identify a brand of guitar in a blind test may be out there, but to my knowledge, so far no one has come forth to do it.
Thank you for your reply, and I do accept and appreciate the spirit in which it was written. This has proven an interesting thread, elevated by non-judgemental responses and enhanced with much expertise (provided by yourself and others with far more technical knowledge than myself).
After going back and re-reading this entire thread, I certainly agree with many of your observations regarding the tests you performed with MSA. For example, I concur that people’s pre-conceived notions regarding guitar brand can and often will effect what they may “hear”. The story of swapping pick-ups for an unsatisfied player, only to put back in the original and find the player then extremely happy, was amusing and of course I believe it to be true (a good example of human nature in action). I also agree that visual cues, such as color, impact, or at least influence, what we hear (or in your specific case, the business decision to add the words “SuperSustain” to your steels).
But I still respectfully stand by my belief that there are inherent tonal differences between steels. None of the above, to me, disproves that. Nor does the fact that players were not able to consistently identify their steels in your blind test. I say this for the following reason, but I am really regurgitating Dave D’s argument made a few pages back. If amp EQ adjustments had to be made in order to get steel A to sound as close as possible to steel B, that implies a difference in tone between those steels with the same amp settings. I do readily admit that these “tonal differences” are probably much smaller than we imagine, and that would explain why tweaking amp settings would in most cases be enough to cause a certain percentage of incorrect selections in a blind test. Obviously, from a business perspective, your test was completely valid in that it substantiated your decision that no modifications to the MSA were necessary, since you now had the information that by amp setting modifications, a “desired tone” by any given player could likely be achieved. But I still don’t see how any of that disproves the “inherent tone” theory. To me what it does prove is that amp modifications can render "inherent tonal differences" to near moot.
Lastly, I am not sure I followed your comment regarding my inclusion of the quote attributed to Buddy Emmons. Yes, that comment was his perspective alone (based on his use of the word “I”), but I don’t see any connection between that and your conclusion (if I understand you correctly) that he was not implying “CIT” exists. To me, he was implying just that. Perhaps you could clarify as I may be misunderstanding you.
I am certainly not Reece, and I am absolutely not trying to speak for him! However, after reading your post, I would like to make the following statement.
I am certain that there are differences in the sound/tone of different guitars. What I am also certain of is that there is no inherent tone in a particular brand of guitar, that distinguishes it to the point of a person being able to consistently recognize and pick that guitar/brand out in a blind test.
After reading the posts of some folks, it appears there are some who are of the opinion that there is a distinguishing, signature tone, in a particular brand of guitar that would consistently give away its' identity in a blind test.
If one pays attention to their rhetoric, a certain brand has a bright singing tone, another has a smooth mellow tone, another has a edgy tone, and vintage MSAs have either a dark tone, or inferior tone. etc.
By the way, what is an edgy tone? What is a dark tone?
The MSA guitar I now own has gone through a complete tonal change in the last couple of weeks. It is a totally different sounding instrument compared to its' tone when I started work on it.
I've changed the pickups, adjusted the pedal throw, timed the pulls closer, and changed some string gauges.
I installed new speakers in my amplifier, installed a tone modification kit, enclosed the cabinet back, and added sound insulation material with tuned ports. I also upgraded my reverb.
Last, but not least, I have concentrated on my picking. Paying particular attention to tone.
My guitars' sound is completely different, but it's still the same vintage MSA.
Scott H…..Thank you for your comments and your kind demeanor. I respect your continued belief in inherent tone, and I’m delighted to discuss it with you.
If the same amp settings were to be used for every guitar, surely the tone of most guitars would be at least slightly different. However sounding different can be introduced with different pickups, strings, volume pedal pot, chords and etc. thereby in itself defying consistency which I believe must be present at all times while trying to make valid determinations. Such tests as you prescribe could possibly even further erode the consistent inherent tone theory by the number of variables that could be introduced/heard.
However even IF it were to be proven consistent inherent tone does indeed exist by removing the amp from the equasion (by using the same settings for each guitar) one would ask what difference does it make in the final analysis, because amps can and do provide sound spectrums which have the potential to equal and stabilize the spectrum of sound/tone? Noone would buy a quality amp and keep every setting the same all the time.
Please note that I said each guitar played in the tests at MSA had the original pickups and we used the same amp, volume pedal, strings, cords and etc. in each evaluation. To make valid determinations, consistency is the key, therefore there must be a consistent starting point.
Let’s just say for the sake of discussion, that brand A was found to have a consistent inherent tone when using the same amp settings. If simply changing the amp will allow other guitars to achieve a like sound, would that not render CIT as inconsequential? To me that would be like searching for a vaccine for an unknown disease.
The sum total of all design components and production materials comprises the sound/tone of an electric instrument who’s voice then comes from the amp, Is that not after all the sum total of all things combined and therefore to be considered the end result…..the end result being that of defying the existence of CIT?
Use of the word “I” to me means, that is his opinion alone, and he states it so emphatically through repetition that it implies he was possibly the only one who could hear the difference. It’s certainly not my intention to put words in anyone’s mouth, this is simply my impression while reading between the lines.
Once again I thank you for your comments, it’s a pleasure to discuss this most interesting subject.
Reece Anderson wrote:
However even IF it were to be proven consistent inherent tone does indeed exist by removing the amp from the equation (by using the same settings for each guitar) one would ask what difference does it make in the final analysis, because amps can and do provide sound spectrums which have the potential to equal and stabilize the spectrum of sound/tone? Noone would buy a quality amp and keep every setting the same all the time.
Let’s just say for the sake of discussion, that brand A was found to have a consistent inherent tone when using the same amp settings. If simply changing the amp will allow other guitars to achieve a like sound, would that not render CIT as inconsequential? To me that would be like searching for a vaccine for an unknown disease.
Reece (and Bill), I agree with both of these statements 100% - if amp settings can make one guitar sound like another, what difference does CIT make in the final analysis? Practically none, I suppose. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t there. When I argue CIT exists, I argue it under the assumption that any guitar comparisons would be made with the exact same amp settings (i.e flat EQ), whereas my understanding is in your tests, amp settinsg were utilized in an attempt (apparently successfully) to get 2 different steels to sound alike. It seems to me your “frame of reference” is that the amp is really an "extension" of the guitar, with tone controls to be adjusted, and of course that is what we do with amps. So again, in that context, I agree with your statements. I guess my only point was, taking the amp out of the equation only validates, to me, that CIT does exist, albeit in perhaps smaller amounts than we would like to believe (for those of us who DO believe it!).
BTW, I would like to make clear that I have no axe to grind with regard to MSA’s in general (since I know that was part of the initial thrust of the thread – “why do MSA’s sell for less”?). I have never owned one nor played one, but I would love to have the opportunity to some day. I do visit Greg Cutshaw’s site fairly frequently and often drool over the photo’s of his Legend…it looks like a work of art.
This is the clearest version yet of Reece's thinking and the point of the MSA blind tests. It should end the debate over whether there are some distinguishable consistent inherent tone (CIT) differences between various models. We all seem to agree there may be in some cases. And it focuses on the question of what the practical significance of that is, if the differences can be compensated in blind tests by amp settings. Thanks for making this so clear now, Reece.
Scott….Thank you for your willingness to discuss CIT with an open mind.
We can disagree concerning the existence of CIT, and there’s certainly nothing wrong with doing so. I do however respectfully submit that approaching CIT predicated on like amp settings perpetuates conjecture.
In contrast, when all is considered relative to professional applications and a benchmark sound/tone, it doesn’t matter if CIT exists as you suggest, because were it to exist it could be negated by the amplifier, which is in itself a necessary component.
The thought never occurred to me you had an axe to grind with either myself or MSA. I will agree with you in that anyone who did have an axe to grind identified themselves vividly, and I believe that to be a good thing for future reference.
Please give my regards to Greg Cutshaw. As many already know, not only is he an exceptional player/musician, he is also an excellent photographer.
Thank you again for your courteous exchange.
David D…..Thank you David, you surely know how much I always appreciate you and your well articulated comments.
Now that I'm a retired Nashville/DFW area recording engineer for the last 45 years and also plays and owns an Emmons PP, Emmons LeGrande lll, Sho-Bud Pro ll and lll & Lacquer MSA SS I will dig up this 7 year old tread now that I have plenty of time to read the net. Let's see. I've captured the sound of Buddy Emmons, Randy Reinhardt, Tom Morrell, Maurice Anderson, Gary Carpenter, Herb Steiner, Junior Knight, Walter Haynes, Ralph Mooney to name a few in pure straight to digital and analog recording consoles. In IMHO there are 3 basic sounds of pedal steel guitars. The Emmons PP, The Sho-Bud and the MSA Supersustain Lacquer. All other modern steels fall in between these sounds with most favoring the Sho-Buds and Emmons. All steel guitars have a voice just like all singers have different voices. There just as different as Martin and Taylor acoustic guitars. I've found the old MSA's to have a richer , thicker sound that is great for single string work. Fills up the track better than the other guitars. A true jazz tone that has been largely ignored. Modern steel guitar manufactors are building superior mechanics now with the tones of the past plus new tones. I think the old Classic MSA Supersustains deserve a rightfully place among the tone machines!
I have just purchased a MSA Classic believed to be a 70’s model D10. Can anyone identify the pickups and finish on this steel. I am a new player and really appreciate anyones help. I’m sure i’ll have many more questions in the future. Now i find myself reading all the old articles from the masters….incredible history !
