Lowering 5 and10 with LKV

John DeBoalt · From: Harrisville New York USA

The popular or standard E9 set up for LKV seems to be to lower strings 5 and 10 to Bb. I chose a different use for this lever when I ordered my instrument several years ago. Now I wonder, is there a particular use for this change, and what am I missing not having it on my instrument? Since I tend more to just work things up rather than order tabs for songs, I'm some what in the dark on this one. John
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Equipment: Carter D10, Zum Stage1,
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Dean Parks · From: Sherman Oaks, California, USA

John-

I think most people use the Bb as the third of a 9th chord.
Ex: fret 5, strings 8, 6, 5 A major... add the lever, and it's an B9th.
or, slide the A major down to fret 1 (CORRECTION: fret 3), add lever, = A9th.

Of course, now that I know more about it all, I realize you can get that A9 by sliding down 1 fret while raising the 8th and 6th 1/2 step... same voicing.

Some split it with the A pedal for a guaranteed C note. So, on fret 5 (A major), A pedal makes it A6th, add the lever and you have A+. (But, get the same thing by keeping the A pedal down, slide down one fret, and again, raise 8 and 6 a half.)

Same split with A and B pedals down gives you a minor chord. But again, same thing is available up one fret, no pedals, lower the 8th string E.
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Now for a couple of changes that are not available otherwise, more of a jazz thing: it's a flat 5 with pedals up, add the D string to the 8, 6, 5 triad.

Pedals down, 9th string root strings 9, 8, 7, 6, 5 = Dmaj7...
...release both pedals while adding the Bb lever, and it's an E9b5,
...release the Bb for a resolve to a straight E9th chord.

Also, use it only on 5 (just tune out the 10th string), and you have the major 7th for a Bmaj7 chord (Strings 10, 8 lowered, 7, 5 lowered).
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One other thing. You can quickly tune the pull to go down to A; using strings 4 and 5, you can play an A-pedal C# and move it smoothly to an A, all with the E ringing, or stop at the B for a a half-beat on the way down, as though you have a Franklin pedal. Oh, and, if you lower the 6th string G# to an F# with RKL, you can do RKL and Vertical together to get the "Franklin Pedal" move.

-dean-

Phil Halton · From: Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA

Well, about the only thing I didn't see mentioned in Dean's post was the Dominant 7th chord you can get with A pedal and B lower split on strings 9 7 6 5 at two frets above a chord's root position. Add the 4th string for a Dom9.

Example, playing a C at 3rd fret with AB pedals, add LKV and 9th string for a quick change to a F7.

Dean wrote...
Ex: fret 5, strings 8, 6, 5 A major... add the lever, and it's an B9th.
or, slide the A major down to fret 1, add lever, = A9th.
...

the A9th at fret 1 puzzles me a bit. If it were strings 7 6 5, I could see it, but with grip 8 6 5 I see notes F, A, B, which ain't no partial 9th chord I recognize. ubstituting String 7 for string 8 would change the F note to a G (the b7th), which would make for a partial A9 chord.

Anyway, thanks Dean for the good ideas--I hadn't gone into it that far before.

Marke Burgstahler · From: SF Bay Area, CA

Thanks Dean - great insight into the LKV possibilities. I'd only been using it to go to the minor with A and B down...ah, what an instrument...
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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

There's also, of course, a diminished - pedals down, with Es and Bs lowered (various grips will give you that dim chord).

There's lots of stuff with this pull - I consider it the fifth most-important E9 'pedal'.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

think melody lines, strings 5 and 8 and strings 3 and 5 with all associated pulls.

t

Dean Parks · From: Sherman Oaks, California, USA

Phil- I edited in a correction regarding A9... should read (fret 3)... I had originally used G9 as my example, and had overlooked that detail when changing to A9.
And I had forgotten about use as a 7th with D-root, good one.

Roger- Diminished, yes a major use I had forgotten. I sacrificed that when I added a string 7 F# to G natural pull on my vertical... I really wanted that move on my 12-string blues stuff, so I've disallowed the F# string in my use of the Bb! (and disallowed string 5 when using the G on my F# string. I need more knees).

Tony: yes, the 5th string being the main "fluid" melody string, having that Bb available is great, having the drop of a minor third on a single string, etc.

One other thing: If you tune the Bb for just string 5 (not 10), and you have a G natural available somewhere in the middle, you could (pedals down) use 10 C#, 7 or 6 G natural, and 5 C natural, for an A7#9 shape (or Eb13 no-root).

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

The B to Bb (A#) change has been standard on LKV (E9th) for new PSG's shipped (unless the buyer wishes something else) for over 12 yrs now.

It probably got its start trying to emulate Tom Brumley's incredible lick on "Together Again", even though Tom did not have knee levers when that song was recorded. He achieved the lick another way.

While today, some players still believe he did use a knee lever. But the facts are, he didn't.

In essence what Tom did, AND what the knee lever does, is to give you the dominate seventh (9th) chord 2 frets DOWN from the V chord fret position; rather than moving up as; had been the case prior to Tom knocking our socks off. (NOTE: Tom got it by moving ONE fret down).

As the lever became more and more standard, it saw other uses, as was so aptly given in several posts.

A note about "splitting" this change with the A pedal. IF one tunes pure "JI" (harmonically pure), the ending C note is flat. If on the other hand you tune sharper than JI, then you will be able to tune the split.

IE, If you tune your C#'s (A pedal down), for NO beats, then your C note "split" will be slightly flat. I have fought this since I added the Lever, since my ears can not tolerate "beats". UNLESS, it occurs in dominants, augmented and diminished chords.

Thank Jesus, MOST players have no problem with this OR sharpening their "3rds" a bit (all the way up to ET). But a few of us do, and it is a curse, I GAR OWN TEE ya! Mad

carl
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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Re: Carl's post...

I have found that, as time went on, I employed the 'split tune' with my 'C' pedal ('Day') and my B to Bb 'lower' less and less.

I still think the B to Bb lower is a vital tool, but I now use a half-pedal to achieve the half-step 'raise' on the 5th string - I've come to trust my ears more than my steel's mechanics!

By the way, I no longer flatten my thirds - Dave Robbins got me thinking straight and actually putting my steel in tune with all the other instruments in the band.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Marc Friedland · From: Fort Collins, CO

I also lower the 5 & 10 with LKV, but not the same on each string.
The 5th string I have the standard 1/2 step lower to Bb, as I like the melodic options it gives me.
The 10 string I lower a full step to A, which works well for me. I like having that low A available, and obviously, I never play the 5th & 10th strings together at the same time.
Marc

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I like that, Mark - I may try it. Maybe it could be rigged so that there's a natural 'feel stop' when the 5th string has lowered that half-step. Then one could still get a Bb on string 10 if needed.

I don't like the change on LKV (I don't enjoy 'verticals' period, so I put my least-used pull on them) - I have it on my right knee; I use it along with my left knees, and it's just too awkward on LKV.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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John DeBoalt · From: Harrisville New York USA

Thanks for the imput guys. Interesting stuff indeed. When I ordered my instrument, I had them drop the 3 and 6 a half and raise 1 a half. This gave me a big fat minor chord with a unison 3rd if I wanted it. It worked for the band I was in at the time, but I rarely use it any more. Thanks again. John
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Equipment: Carter D10, Zum Stage1,
Wechter Scheernhorn Reso, Deneve Reso, Fender Jazzmaster, Martin D16, Walker Stereo Steel amp, TC Electronics M One effects unit, JBL 15" speaker cabs,Peavey Nashville 1000,Peavey Revoloution 112, Morrell Lap Steel, Boss DD3 delay,others

Whip Lashaway · From: Monterey, Tenn, USA

I never could get used to that on the LKV. I raise my F#'s to G with that one. I lower my B's to A# on my RKL. I use it a LOT and it's just handier there. Plus I play E9/B6 tuning so it's available for use with the B6 when I lock my E to D# lever. Just something else to think about.
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Allan Thompson · From: Scotland.

Roger wrote :By the way, I no longer flatten my thirds - Dave Robbins got me thinking straight and actually putting my steel in tune with all the other instruments in the band.

Roger, does that mean you are now tuning straight up 440 ?

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Yes, Allan; it took some ear-training, but I accomplished it far sooner than I expected.

I don't tune the B string flat on my Martins or Telecasters, after all, and I never tune the Es flat on C6th. It's a mysterious business, but I sure enjoy being in tune with the other guys in the pit!
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Clete Ritta · From: San Antonio, Texas

Ive been tuning 440. New side topic relating to original post: I am adding a LKV to a Mullen SD10 3X4 to lower B to Bb on 5/10. Anyone done this before? I Have RKL raising 1/7 but I like Whips post about switching B lowers from the vertical. I may want to do that instead.

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

I resisted this one for a long time but finally put in on my LKV a couple of months ago to get the Bmaj7 (with lowered Es) and happily discovered the 9th chord two frets down that several folks have mentioned. Here's an interesting observation about the thread though: few if any of the suggested uses people have mentioned involve lowering the tenth string to Bb (well, A# to be more theoretically pure). Indeed, I did not put that on my lever because it would interfere with things like the B maj7. I wonder if lowering both Bs a half step is really the optimal use of the lever.

Dan
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Guess I'm old fashioned...I lower both B's with a floor pedal, and get the split note by half-pedaling the A pedal. (I play a lot of rhythm, so I have to have both B's lowering.)

Phil Halton · From: Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA

After reading through this post, there's one thing I haven't seen mentioned about the LKV (5th & 10th string lower)pull. In conjunction with the A&B pedals, as everyone knows, it produces a minor chord. In fact, it produces the identical minor chord one fret below that produced by the E-lower lever. So, it can replace the E-lower lever minor chord in the major chord scale.

I think the advantage of this fact, and I'm convinced its one of the reasons for the invention of this change, is that the fretwise movement of the chord scale now resembles the stepwise pattern of the major scale itself.

What I mean is, the major scale has the semitone pattern of 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2, 1. Which is two major tetrachords ( 2 2 1 ) coupled by a whole step in the middle. Now, using the ABV pedal shaped minor chord in the chord scale, the fretwise movement is also
2 2 1 2 2 2 1.

When using the E-lower lever minor chords in the chord scale, the fretwise pattern is
3 2 0 2 3 2 0.

To my mind, its just too much of a coincidence not to have been a design factor.

In addition, the 6th string split aligns the harmonies on strings 6 & 8 in the same way -- 2 2 1 2 2 2 1. So, using both splits, you get a stack of three harmonies (grip 6 & 8, 5 & 6, 4 & 5) aligned on a single fret, with all stacks conforming to the stepwise pattern of the major scale.

On my Carter, the pedals/levers A, B, V and F (RKL) engage both the 5th and 6th string splits for a minor 7th chord. Without the V lever its a Dominant 7th and with just A & B its a major chord. So, I can play the major chord scale in key of C as:

fret 3 AB pedals I chord
fret 5 ABVF pedals IIm7 chord
fret 7 ABVF pedals IIIm7 chord
fret 8 AB pedals IV chord
Fret 10 ABF pedals V7 chord
fret 12 ABVF pedals VIm7 chord
fret 14 ABVF pedals VIIm7 chord

Notice the fretwise pattern of 2 2 1 2 2 2 1? That's what I'm talking about. If I was using the E lever minors, the frets would have been
3(C), 6(Dm), 8(Em), 8(F), 10(G7), 13(Am) 15(Bm) -- a pattern of 3 2 0 2 3 2 0.

The biggest (major) advantage comes in, at least for me, when playing melody lines -- I can think in terms of the major scale pattern instead of converting to the 3 2 0 2 3 2 0 pattern that arises from the E-lower minors in the chord scale.

I am convinced this was a design factor that went beyond simply facilitating a popular lick of the day.

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