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Topic: Tuning the 2nd string lowers |
Jerry Adler
From:
Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 23 Mar 2009 10:04 am |
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Hi folks,
Just a quick question. I have a split lower on the 2nd string that takes it to D and then C#. How does one tune this lever so both drops hit the mark? Am I correct in assuming that since it's one hex nylon, the stops cannot be adjusted independently of one another? |
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 23 Mar 2009 10:15 am
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Jerry,The 1/2 stop on most of the guitars I have owned have been tuned with the 9th string lower,The tuning nut for the 2nd string tunes the whole step Eb-C#,Then tune Eb-D with the tuning nut for the 9th string lower.It also depends on what guitar?Etc.
Stu
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
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CrowBear Schmitt
From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 23 Mar 2009 1:46 pm
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The 1/2 stop can be a tuff deal, on Carter Steels they have added an 11th location on the changer which is a helper string specifically for the 1/2 stop. Another thing you can do is add a rod on the cross shaft to one of the heavier C6th strings, adjust the hex nut on the C6th string to adjust the 1/2 stop feel and requires additional ummphh to get to the full tone drop.
On my steel I have actually added a helper string assy and adjusted it so it is very stiff from the 1/2 tone drop to the full tone drop.
But, you still gotta feel it and hear the tone, we, the player, are still part of the 1/2 stop equation.
t |
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Jerry Adler
From:
Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 23 Mar 2009 3:23 pm
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| So, after you tune the full stop you use the 9th string hex to SIMULTANEOUSLY adjust the 9th string lower to C# and the 2nd string 1/2 lower to D? I guess the part I'm confused about is this: The RKR is the lever in question. If I want to lower the 9th a 1/2, I move it (the lever) all the way right. But if I want to lower the 2nd string 1/2, I only move the RKR to the feel stop. So my question is, when I fine tune the 9th hex so the 2nd string 1/2 (feel stop) AND the 9th string 1/2 (full stop) are correct, how do I do it? |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 23 Mar 2009 5:10 pm
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Jerry,
There are a number of different ways the D# to D (half stop) to C# is arranged AND tuned.
The method of using the 9th string is a good way too BUT.......you are going to need a way to tune the 9th string C#, AFTER you have adjusted the 2nd string "stop". Otherwise the C# on the 9th string will be TOO flat. This of course is NOT necessary if you never use the C# on the 9th string. But there are some mighty fine music licks with this change.
Assuming you have this ability, do the following:
1. Tune the 2nd string lower so it is in pitch from D# to C#, dead on, with the 2nd string lower nylon tuner*.
2. Use the 9th string lower nylon tuner to set the half-stop on the 2nd string, so you "feel" the string when it reaches the D note.
3. Adjust the spring return tension on the 9th string to set the tension of the half-stop "feel" on the 2nd string.
If you do not intend to use the D to C# lower on the 9th string, you are done. If, however you plan to use it then do the following:
4. Now use the allen "split screw" on string 9 to raise the "too flat" C# back up to C#.
If your guitar does not have "split screws", add a raise rod (with nlyon tuner) to the 9th string bellcrank, and use it instead to sharpen that "too flat" C# back up to pitch on the 9th string.
Having said all of this, you need to be aware that MOST PSG's do not use this type of "half stop" tuning on the 2nd string.
Most have a "half-stop" adjuster installed ON the 2nd string, and in MOST cases it is tuned from UNDER neath the guitar. One of the exceptions to this, is as mentioned in an earlier post, the Carter PSG, where they have an 11th hole with a rod and nylon tuner, that you use to tune the "half-stop".
So I would strongly suggest you see IF your guitar is set up for a "half-stop" adjuster on the 2nd string. MOST are today. And then use whatever adjustment that may already be on your guitar.
carl
*This will NOT work on an Emmons' P/P, when it comes to the 9th string method. They must be tuned from underneath using a dedicated "hal- stop" tuner.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 23 Mar 2009 5:11 pm
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Double post. Sorry. But I got an error message when I hit "submit" the first time.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 23 Mar 2009 5:16 pm
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| Jerry, in order to tune 3 notes independently, you need to be able to adjust 3 things. The two tuning nuts are not enough. There are several different ways to do it. What kind of steel guitar is it? |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 23 Mar 2009 6:36 pm
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I was surfing the forum and ran across a photo of a Carter PSG with the 11th hole "half-stop" adjuster.
carl
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 23 Mar 2009 10:22 pm
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| I had a Carter at one time, but the extra 'dummy' finger that was used for the 1/2 stop was too soft for me, so, as I also lower the ninth a semitone, I did what Carl has so eloquently described, and added an extra rod to the ninth string, to get both strings accurately in tune. |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 23 Mar 2009 10:27 pm
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| C Dixon wrote: |
| *This will NOT work on an Emmons' P/P, when it comes to the 9th string method. They must be tuned from underneath using a dedicated "hal- stop" tuner. |
.......or you can use the old "tried and true jury-rigged" push-pull 2nd string 1/2 stop method:
Simple to do, but there is a trade-off. This method eliminates the ability to have any 2nd string raises (D#->E change). |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 24 Mar 2009 12:17 am
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it doesn't have to be on the 9th string, it can be on any C6th string as well, you are adding an extra helper spring, it doesn't much matter where it is added. The 9th is good as it is a fundamental pull and heavier gauge, adding yet another from the C6th side of things is the same thing, think physics.Truth of the matter is the 9ths string added spring may not be enough for a solid feel stop.
t |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 24 Mar 2009 6:01 am
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| Quote: |
| .......or you can use the old "tried and true jury-rigged" push-pull 2nd string 1/2 stop method: |
You are correct. And jury rigged I agree! I had forgotten that method. If I am not mistaken, the late Fred Trogden of the Emmons' Co. came up with that method years ago. I immediately thought and said a few times, "But what if you ever want to raise that string?"
Some laughed, a few quipped, yet others scoffed and said, "Why in the world would you ever want to raise the second string?" A steel player friend said those exact words to me.
Be that as it may, today more and more PSG players are following the lead of Paul Franklin and doing just that now. In fact, I believe it will be standard soon.
Beware steelers, EVERY string on BOTH necks will one day be raised AND lowered to their mechanical limits IMO. Jimmy Crawford did it years ago, but he was just ahead of his time. It is the way music works, and as PSG 'ears' get more ear cultured to more and more musical nuances and genre's, it will come. Gar-OWN-Tee ya. 
Thus, I have never "cottened" to "living for the moment". It sooner or later "backfires". And then,
"NOW what in the pluperfect hallelujah am I gunna do?"
With good forethought (and engineering) that is always defused.
Also, using a tuner on C6 do do it, negates using that knee lever for needed changes on C6th. But it WILL work, until one day...................... 
carl
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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Jerry Adler
From:
Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 24 Mar 2009 7:18 am
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Thanks guys. I appreciate the help.
Jerry |
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 24 Mar 2009 9:11 am
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[quote="C Dixon"]
If you do not intend to use the D to C# lower on the 9th string, you are done. If, however you plan to use it then do the following:
4. Now use the allen "split screw" on string 9 to raise the "too flat" C# back up to C#.
Carl,You have just unlocked another mystery for me...Thanks so much,Stu 
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 24 Mar 2009 9:13 am
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_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 24 Mar 2009 6:43 pm
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[quote="Stu Schulman"]
| C Dixon wrote: |
..... Now use the allen "split screw" on string 9 to raise the "too flat" C# back up to C#.
Carl,You have just unlocked another mystery for me...Thanks so much,Stu |
So obvious, yet I've overlooked that solution since I bought my Zum last year.
I've been fortunate in that the 2nd string detente (D) has been pretty close to where my 9th string lower kicks in, but it never dawned on me that I could dial it in perfectly with the split screw.....Took about two minutes to set-up....Thx, Carl |
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Tom Keller
From:
Greeneville, TN, USA
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Posted 25 Mar 2009 4:27 pm
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Hey guys, Would anybody care to comment on how you set the second string D# D C# /9 string D C# lower on a Sho Bud Pro III Custom without the little barrel gizmo that you use to adjust? People have tried to tell me how do this so far it escapes me how to do this. I had no trouble with these lowers until I changed strings.
Thank You |
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